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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Neighbour has rented out our property abroad without permission!

470 replies

unsurebut · 19/03/2024 21:10

My father has a property in Spain. It's been in the family since the 70s as a holiday home. Until 3/4 years ago my father travelled there regularly and the place was occasionally used by other family. Then my father had a catastrophic stroke and wasn't able to travel for a while and the place wasn't used as much.

The neighbour there offered to keep an eye on the place in return for his family being able to stay there on the odd weekend/couple of weeks in the summer. He's a nice guy and has done a lot to modernise the property. My father then gave him permission to rent out the flat when it wasn't being used, again, for the odd weekend / couple of weeks in the summer, nothing permanent or long term and we were to be kept informed about who was staying there and when in advance of it being rented out.

Fast forward to this year and my father has recovered enough to travel. We've booked to go there in June, all very excited. My father emailed the neighbour, only to be told that it's not possible because he's rented the property out until January! Not only is this not permitted, we weren't even told! I am absolutely outraged and my father is very cross. He's emailed the neighbour to say that we will be arriving on said dates and that's non-negotiable, the neighbour has replied to say that he's away this week so will respond next week. Meanwhile, flights have been booked, all on the assumption that we were to be notified in advance of it being rented out.

There's communication between my father and the neighbour referring to the agreement, but no specific contract or anything, and the arrangement has worked well until now. I think what has happened is that the neighbour has become used to us not using it and has been renting it out far more than we were aware.

So what do we do now if he refuses to get the 'tenants' to leave?! Surely their contract with the neighbour is null and void because he doesn't have permission to rent it out on this basis? The neighbour DEFINITELY knows this.

AIBU to demand the people leave so we can use the flat as and when we want?

OP posts:

Thread gallery

Alittlebitwary · 21/03/2024 23:09

AppropriateAdult · 19/03/2024 22:19

Honestly, I'd take a deep breath, wait until the neighbour comes back and have a proper conversation with him
about it. It sounds like he's essentially become an unofficial property manager for your dad over the last few years, and up until now has been really helpful, ensuring that your dad has had an income from a property that he hasn't been able to use himself. He may have got a bit over-enthusiastic and, assuming your dad wasn't going to be travelling out again at this stage, felt it was ok to plan ahead a bit further than previously - obviously this was wrong, but I presume he's not keeping all the rent for himself or anything? Or do you think he's been withholding money up to now? Either way I think rushing in with solicitors and police and locksmiths before you've even got a handle on the situation would be very unhelpful.

I agree with this. Sounds like the neighbour has been doing him a huge favour - unless he's been pocketing the rental income himself and has been purposely deceptive, I'd have a proper conversation about it before going all guns blazing.

DesteB · 21/03/2024 22:28

I think the neighbor renting the property could be doing something illegal. Only your father or an agent can legally do that.
Unfortunately you cant trust anyone with your property, we had one in Majorca and wouldn't leave the key with anyone. I would advise anyone to be very vague about when you are coming out. Tell them you could be coming out soon but no specific date. I have seen it all and could write a book, especially that you cant trust anyone, no matter how nice or helpful.

woahboy · 21/03/2024 20:31

potato57 · 21/03/2024 15:46

so the neighbour has

done up the property themselves
found long term paying tenants for which your dad is getting the money
kept everything running and secure for you

your dad is getting all the rent and has been avoiding tax on it for years so making even more profit.

and you're mad because you don't get to go on holiday when you want, even though you so rarely use the property you've only just found out about this?

wild if true, most property managers would do far less and expect at least 10%.

Edited

Tell everyone you didn't read the post fully without telling us 🙄

woahboy · 21/03/2024 20:26

Hakunatomato · 21/03/2024 19:27

Hope you will be generous to the neighbour for ‘modernising’ and looking after the property, and allowing your father to receive some kind of an income from it, when you never rented it before…

The father paid for the modernisation. The neighbour has been renting the place out on the regular and pocketing the money.

angeltop · 21/03/2024 20:23

There are very strict rules regarding the letting of propery in Spain. Be careful you don’t fall foul of them,(inadvertently) All rental property must be registered as such. Agree, legal advice needed.

Hakunatomato · 21/03/2024 19:27

Hope you will be generous to the neighbour for ‘modernising’ and looking after the property, and allowing your father to receive some kind of an income from it, when you never rented it before…

Definitelylivedin · 21/03/2024 18:08

PinkShaker · 21/03/2024 15:20

I’m sorry to tell you that the neighbour has done a number on your dad here, and you need legal representation ASAP. Spanish law is very complicated but essentially protects ‘squatter’s rights’ so, if the neighbour has a tenant in your dad’s house and the tenant has an agreement, you cannot evict him. This exact thing is currently happening to my own Dad - neighbour gave some random guy access to my Dad’s Spanish house during covid. This guy moved in, changed the locks, starting redecorating and repairing stuff, and now rents the house out on Air Bnb! He has stolen the house! And we have no legal recourse without going through a painstakingly slow legal process which does not favour us as foreigners. To add insult to injury, my dad has to keep paying all bills and utilities on the house; if he misses a payment, legal ownership defaults to the house thief! It’s bonkers!

@PinkShaker contact Airbnb with proof of ownership etc and they should take it down from the site. Keep on at them. The guy may have squatters rights in Spain but Airbnb are generally pretty careful about this sort of situation.

fuzzwuss · 21/03/2024 16:42

You need to be careful here not to antagonise anyone. Your dad has clearly not paid tax in Spain, which could be a huge problem if discovered. Secondly, you dont say.where the property is but there is a requirement in a lot of areas of Spain to register the property if it is being let, not sure if as a business or something, but I know someone who fell foul of this. Failing to do so can result in a hefty fine. Presumably your dad has not done that, perhaps you can do that now. If the neighbour wanted to make trouble both of these things could become a problem.

Attackofthekillereggs · 21/03/2024 16:04

@potato57

Everything you have said is incorrect.

owlsinthedaylight · 21/03/2024 15:53

potato57 · 21/03/2024 15:46

so the neighbour has

done up the property themselves
found long term paying tenants for which your dad is getting the money
kept everything running and secure for you

your dad is getting all the rent and has been avoiding tax on it for years so making even more profit.

and you're mad because you don't get to go on holiday when you want, even though you so rarely use the property you've only just found out about this?

wild if true, most property managers would do far less and expect at least 10%.

Edited

Erm, no. Did you actually read the OPs posts?

potato57 · 21/03/2024 15:46

so the neighbour has

done up the property themselves
found long term paying tenants for which your dad is getting the money
kept everything running and secure for you

your dad is getting all the rent and has been avoiding tax on it for years so making even more profit.

and you're mad because you don't get to go on holiday when you want, even though you so rarely use the property you've only just found out about this?

wild if true, most property managers would do far less and expect at least 10%.

justasking111 · 21/03/2024 15:45

Friends father died left a property in Spain on the waterfront Innocently they gave it to a Spanish estate agent. No viewers. After two years the agent found a buyer who offered 30% less. They had to take it to settle the estate. It was sold to a local policeman.

justasking111 · 21/03/2024 15:42

Johnnydoc · 21/03/2024 15:40

You are not allowed to rent out in spain
unless you apply
they check property up to standard
you have to pay tax
if you rent out without relevant paperwork
very heavy fine
so neighbours will be in big trouble

Why it's not their property.

Johnnydoc · 21/03/2024 15:40

TheSquareMile · 21/03/2024 15:38

@unsurebut

I would seek legal advice. Stone King would probably be able to advise.

https://www.stoneking.co.uk/spanish-legal-services

https://www.stoneking.co.uk/our-people/raquel-ugalde

diddl · 21/03/2024 15:26

neighbour gave some random guy access to my Dad’s Spanish house during covid.

How did the neighbour manage to do that?

PinkShaker · 21/03/2024 15:20

ClawedButler · 21/03/2024 14:50

I don't know.

If my dad had:
...taken cash in hand (paid tax on it? declared it?)

...from a casual acquaintance (rather than a legal agent, with liability insurance etc.)

...without any sort of written agreement

...I'd be wary of attracting the attention of the authorities or arguing via solicitors the exact terms of the agreement.

I think he's been daft rather than evil, but still I can't see your dad having the moral or legal high ground here.

Daisyblue77 · 21/03/2024 14:37

unsurebut · 19/03/2024 21:39

My father, with a reduction for the neighbour.

Show quote history

So he knew it was completely booked out?

justasking111 · 21/03/2024 14:36

Alondra · 21/03/2024 14:06

I agree. I'm Spanish and some of the advice on this thread is bonkers. Spanish law provides tenants with serious rights. I don't know about rights in the UK but in Spain if you have a rental agreement with a legal agent, their family can't terminate it just because the owner for health issues or disinterest, didn't do it themselves.

OP, a good starting point would be to talk to your father and ascertain if the permission he gave to the neighbour was a legal document properly notarised or not.

Show quote history

They really are stuffed then

justasking111 · 21/03/2024 14:35

unsurebut · 20/03/2024 11:18

I have absolutely no idea how he's paid the tax tbh.

Show quote history

Your dad and neighbour have conspired to defraud the Spanish government is how they'll see it. What an awful mess. Someone needs to fly out and remove the tenants and hope to God it's not picked up.

Alondra · 21/03/2024 14:06

PinkIcedCream · 21/03/2024 08:24

You’d probably find the Spanish police will lock you up if you do this. 😂

Spanish Law is completely different and tenants have more rights than they do in the U.K.

The OP has admitted that the neighbour was given permission by her father to rent out the property (effectively making him The Agent) and that the neighbour does pass on money from the let in the form of bundles of cash, so there is an agreement between them that proves that the agent had authority to rent it out. Therefore the let is likely to be viewed by the Spanish courts as entirely Lawful.

It’s going to be virtually impossible to get rid of the tenants in the short term unless they’re willing to leave voluntarily.

The OP needs to ignore all the well meaning advice on this thread and focus on the ones who have actual knowledge of the Spanish legal system!

Show quote history

OP, a good starting point would be to talk to your father and ascertain if the permission he gave to the neighbour was a legal document properly notarised or not.

longapple · 21/03/2024 13:18

BigBrotherDoesntKnowWhatACelebrityIs · 21/03/2024 13:10

@horseyhorsey17 @longapple I posted the screen shots of Mexican House thief on page 9. Enjoy!

I hate reading phone screenshots on a computer and someone asked for a link so I shared it 🤷‍♂️

BigBrotherDoesntKnowWhatACelebrityIs · 21/03/2024 13:11

Ah, fuck it. Have them again, too good.