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Neighbour has rented out our property abroad without permission!

470 replies

unsurebut · 19/03/2024 21:10

My father has a property in Spain. It's been in the family since the 70s as a holiday home. Until 3/4 years ago my father travelled there regularly and the place was occasionally used by other family. Then my father had a catastrophic stroke and wasn't able to travel for a while and the place wasn't used as much.

The neighbour there offered to keep an eye on the place in return for his family being able to stay there on the odd weekend/couple of weeks in the summer. He's a nice guy and has done a lot to modernise the property. My father then gave him permission to rent out the flat when it wasn't being used, again, for the odd weekend / couple of weeks in the summer, nothing permanent or long term and we were to be kept informed about who was staying there and when in advance of it being rented out.

Fast forward to this year and my father has recovered enough to travel. We've booked to go there in June, all very excited. My father emailed the neighbour, only to be told that it's not possible because he's rented the property out until January! Not only is this not permitted, we weren't even told! I am absolutely outraged and my father is very cross. He's emailed the neighbour to say that we will be arriving on said dates and that's non-negotiable, the neighbour has replied to say that he's away this week so will respond next week. Meanwhile, flights have been booked, all on the assumption that we were to be notified in advance of it being rented out.

There's communication between my father and the neighbour referring to the agreement, but no specific contract or anything, and the arrangement has worked well until now. I think what has happened is that the neighbour has become used to us not using it and has been renting it out far more than we were aware.

So what do we do now if he refuses to get the 'tenants' to leave?! Surely their contract with the neighbour is null and void because he doesn't have permission to rent it out on this basis? The neighbour DEFINITELY knows this.

AIBU to demand the people leave so we can use the flat as and when we want?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
woahhhh · 20/03/2024 10:04

@Katiesaidthat

I rent in Spain, the flat I live in belongs to my landlady (and a few other flats too). If she were to come in when I am away and change the locks, I´d report her to the police and start a denuncia, and take her to the cleaners. Just saying.

Even if the flat wasn't rented out to you by the owner but illegally by some random person?

woahhhh · 20/03/2024 10:03

@canyon2000 @LaughterLentil
I think the OP means her father was supposedly Getting the money but it's become apparent that the neighbour has rented it out far more that admitted and pocketed the money himself.
^
The agreement was occasional rental which he was given cash for when he went over but the neighbour has been renting it out on an almost permanent basis instead and keeping the money.^

Emotionalsupportviper · 20/03/2024 10:01

whatsitcalledwhen · 20/03/2024 08:23

I agree with this.

If he's been taking cash in hand payments for rentals with no paper trail at any point, let alone for years, then he can't pursue this legally without having admitted he's broken property laws himself. Presuming he hasn't been declaring and paying tax in Spain for the rental income?

Not just broken Spanish property laws, but probably he and the neighbour have been defrauding tax authorities in both countries.

I'm not a tax expert, but I have an idea that HMRC frowns on people being handed "big bundles of cash" without any provenance.

Garlicking · 20/03/2024 10:01

Epidote · 20/03/2024 09:58

Yep, sounds crazy innit! however if someone is living there, legally or illegally, and as it is not the owner first residence, the occupiers rights to an accommodation trumps OP father rights as owner.

Yes, how would you feel if you were renting a place and came back from a day out to find the locks had been changed??

KattyBoomBoom95 · 20/03/2024 10:00

unsurebut · 19/03/2024 21:14

Nothing will be valid!

Not sure how it works abroad but even squatters can't just be turfed out here. You need to go through the courts. You may not just be able to make a family homeless with no notice.

Katiesaidthat · 20/03/2024 10:00

BlondeFool · 20/03/2024 09:51

@Kirstk illegal to change the locks on THEIR own property?

I rent in Spain, the flat I live in belongs to my landlady (and a few other flats too). If she were to come in when I am away and change the locks, I´d report her to the police and start a denuncia, and take her to the cleaners. Just saying.

Epidote · 20/03/2024 09:58

BlondeFool · 20/03/2024 09:51

@Kirstk illegal to change the locks on THEIR own property?

Yep, sounds crazy innit! however if someone is living there, legally or illegally, and as it is not the owner first residence, the occupiers rights to an accommodation trumps OP father rights as owner.

Bryterlayter1 · 20/03/2024 09:57

BlondeFool · 20/03/2024 09:51

@Kirstk illegal to change the locks on THEIR own property?

Changing the locks and giving the tenants new keys, probably fine. Changing the locks to exclude the tenants and making them homeless, that's going to be illegal isn't it?

It's not the changing the locks that is the issue it's the kicking someone out of the home that is the concern.

ZiriForGood · 20/03/2024 09:55

While a short consultation with Spanish lawyer might be useful for understanding the situation, I would recommend to stop and think whether going fully official is going to improve the outcomes.

Speak to the neighbour. Surely the unexpected accrued rent can cover another place to spend your holidays. Keeping it civilised with the neighbour and finding a way forward together sounds like the best option.

horseyhorsey17 · 20/03/2024 09:53

God, what a mess. Is it being rented out as a family home or a holiday let? Do you know if it's been done through an official company like Air BnB or informally - ie not above board and all paid cash in hand?

If I was you, I'd sell the place. You can't continue to live next door to someone who has undoubtedly been scamming you, and your dad could be in trouble for all the cash-in-hand payments that he's presumably not been declaring. Better off getting rid and buying something else if you still want a place abroad.

BlondeFool · 20/03/2024 09:51

@Kirstk illegal to change the locks on THEIR own property?

Garlicking · 20/03/2024 09:47

Moveoverdarlin · 20/03/2024 09:14

The neighbour will have been making tens of thousands for years! He’ll give your Dad a couple of grand every time he goes out there, meanwhile is charging tenants €1000 a month. I would be dropping everything and flying out there today. But that’s just me. Cut out the neighbour, speak to the tenants and say you’ve got till May 1st to get out. Sorry for the situation but the property is ours and nothing to do with the neighbour. I’d be sure to ask them how much rent the neighbour is charging them. It could be in an absolute state, I’d probably fly out again in May and make sure it’s spic and span for your holiday in June. I’d be billing the neighbour for rent arrears and say you want €Xxxx for when you all come out in June, draw a line under it and say he’s not to rent it out again.

The tenants are currently NOT squatters, they're rent-paying tenants.

This kind of approach is a quick way to turn them into squatters.

Add in the facts that both OP's dad and the neighbour have been acting illegally for many years, scamming tax in both jurisdictions, and most likely have not met the legal duties of a landlord ... and you really don't want to be escalating this, because you will lose.

Even in the UK, the tenants could take both owner and neighbour to the cleaners. In Spain, if antagonised, they could do that while invoking their right to stay in the property - and OP's dad would still be obliged to ensure they are safely housed there.

Best bet's going to be a quiet collaboration with the neighbour, tying up the many very messy loose ends and working how much income to declare for tax purposes in both countries.

First, you'll need a deep dive into the facts, @unsurebut! Good luck 😬

rainbowstardrops · 20/03/2024 09:45

Oh dear, what a mess! I think you need professional advice asap

Kirstk · 20/03/2024 09:45

Star81 · 19/03/2024 21:58

They are in effect squatters and that is a nightmare situation to get into in Spain. They have rights. It’s not easy at all to get rid of them let alone quickly

Father has been accepting rent, so they're renters not squatters.

ClaudiaWinklepanda · 20/03/2024 09:44

Surely suing the neighbour isn't wise when they are in the know about the degree of tax evasion, licensing, H&S stuff etc?

I think the best option would be to find out exactly what has been agreed with the current tenant (is it the same people who are due to stay til Jan, or has he booked in lots of shorter stays between now and Jan) and confirm how much money that will make your dad, so the neighbour can't skim off more than his dues. Instruct the neighbour that there will be no more letting out after Jan.

If I were your dad I would have to declare the income for tax, but that's because I'm a worrier and I believe in paying tax.

What a stupid thing for your dad to have done, OP, I feel for you.

Kirstk · 20/03/2024 09:42

unsurebut · 19/03/2024 21:39

My father, with a reduction for the neighbour.

So your father IS aware its being rented then...

Kirstk · 20/03/2024 09:41

Mylovelygreendress · 19/03/2024 21:33

Best thread ever.

Can you link it please

Epidote · 20/03/2024 09:38

I'd the neighbour Spanish National living in Spain? British National or other Nationality with Spanish citizenship living in Spain? or British national living in UK.
If is the first or the second may be easy for you and your father to sue him once you know what is the truth of what us going on.

TempleOfBloom · 20/03/2024 09:38

What a mess.

But there is time to get a local solicitor involved and give the current residents notice to be out by the end of May

No idea what rentals are like in Spain but even had it been legally done a date of January sounds as if it was a short term / fixed term arrangement.

It’s frustrating but in truth the casual way this has been handled by your Dad has contributed to the situation and over the years it sounds as if the neighbour has kept the place from rack and ruin. It could have been rented out through an agency with associated costs, taxes etc.

Hopefully notice can be given and the place vacated without too much further drama.

Kirstk · 20/03/2024 09:38

BlondeFool · 19/03/2024 21:27

Change the locks ASAP

Illegal to do so in spain

Kirstk · 20/03/2024 09:36

stayathomegardener · 19/03/2024 21:23

I assume the most profitable rent would be week long holiday bookings so would go out on the basis if I couldn't get the current lot out I could change the locks before the next one's arrived.

Who is paying for the utilities? Worth cutting those off if needed.

If they're renting through air b&b it can be booked for months at a time.

InfiniteGoodVibes · 20/03/2024 09:33

'Bundles of cash' but not a single contract between renter and agent/owner!?

This could potentially be very serious OP. What dodgy goings on renting out a property with none of the necessary paperwork in place, not to mention the tax implications.

I wonder if the neighbour would have tried to do the same thing if the holiday home was in Cornwall...

You need a very clear picture of the current situation and any documentation of historical rentals. Spending holiday time there in the summer is the least of your worries atm.

IlCommissarioMontalbano · 20/03/2024 09:33

Nonewclothes2024 · 19/03/2024 21:21

You'll struggle in Spain , squatters have rights.

This ^^

Malevich02 · 20/03/2024 09:29

Sorry OP, it sounds stressful. I would be seeking some legal advice.

Changingplace · 20/03/2024 09:26

Puzzledandpissedoff · 20/03/2024 09:23

I'm a bit confused - you said your father's getting the rent, but how can he be if he didn't even know this long term rental was in place?

You said the neighbour was giving him "bundles of cash" Hmm when he visited, but that's hardly the same thing, and as you say he's undoubtedly been scammed

Though I agree with a PP about wondering why he didn't see this coming ...

The rent he’s received has been in bundles of cash rather than a regular payment, so although he’s had some money it’s not been formally agreed that £x is for this particular rental, it’s been way too informal.