To think change is desperately needed in schools?

There hasn’t. It’s just easier to blame parents for all the problems in society.

Really? They seem to be ruling the roost and getting it all their own way! It's the teachers I feel sorry for!

Not schools so much as society, if you ask me. We live in a toxic environment for children. But nobody can wave a magic wand so that Covid didn’t happen, the cost of living crisis (and all the family stress that goes with it) disappears, and make parents interact with their children more than their devices.

I want to cry when I think of the poor, troubled generation we are raising.

I am old enough to remember the very public debate when Teletubbies was first aired. This was aimed at engaging very young children and there were real concerns about the impact of encouraging very young children to watch TV. The debate seems almost quaint now.
It horrifies me to see tiny children given screens to look at. It destroys concentration at a time when we should be building the ability to concentrate.

There are I think a number of issues.
Low expectations from parents is certainly an issue. If you look at those lists of what children should be able to do at certain ages you can see over time they have got easier.
Over stimulated babies, toddlers and children. There is this idea that children need to be constantly stimulated. They really do not. I have sat with babies on a patch of grass as they spend ages being fascinated by this new thing grass. Everything is new to babies in the world around them. They do not need to be rushed from class to class.
Poverty, poor housing and over stressed parents all put stress on a family that children pick up on and react to. All these issues are increasing.
Poor parenting with the idea that children should never feel upset or angry.
Lack of exercise. And not organised sport, but just running around playing type of exercise.
Parents not understanding that it can take a long time to teach a child something. You see it in toilet training with the idea if they do not get it in a few days, they are not ready. But with every skill some children pick it up easily, and some take lots of teaching. Some children can talk really young, others need lots of help and support. We do not just say - oh that child is not developmentally ready to talk yet. We recognise they need more support to be able to talk.

But the main thing is screens. Screens used by parents instead of interacting with children. Children and even babies interacting with screens instead of adults and other children. And covid did normalise the use of screens for even tiny children.

Your post is so interesting because we’re always being told that the UK puts too much pressure on children in the early years. However whilst I LOVED running around and playing aged 5/6, I also really enjoyed learning to write/doing sums etc. I loathed and still loathe “free style “ learning… it’s far too exhausting as it puts pressure on children to decide. I saw with my own eyes how my DD changed from being really interested in learning at her private nursery/reception, to being apathetic at her outstanding state primary.
Europeans might not start formal school til 6, but you can bet that they will have a good idea of numeracy and reading by the time they start.

I'm not sure its schools so much as it is parents. Nowadays parents abdicate their responsibilities and expect schools to raise their kids. At the same time they go into fits of rage if anyone scolds 'little Jimmy' or tells him off. Parents nowadays as well as their kids have become so entitled (You just have to read some of the posts on mumsnet). So I think its more of a parent problem (maybe they need to be licensed) than a school problem.

My daughter came home yesterday saying a child with learning difficulties attacked another child and the teacher in class. So no-one could do maths.
I feel so sorry for everyone involved.

Legal duty of care to protect staff and workers.

I can't imagine that anyone who denies the impact of COVID had the experience that my family, and so many families I know, had. It was an absolute perfect storm that massively impacted my parenting, despite how hard I tried.
Trying to home school 2 primary aged children, one of whom is autistic, and both parents holding down stressful full time jobs involving lots of phone calls/zoom. Not working was financially not an option.
Plus a nursery aged child who was sometimes in nursery but more often than not, nursery was closed.
Schools requiring screen use to do the work, screens all day becoming normalised for everyone.
No emotional support, no resources, no real freedom and outside activities.
My standards became bare minimum, absolute survival. I was a wreck. I don't think I've recovered. The kids saw us stressed, depressed, lonely, anxious. Weekends were spent zoning out after weekdays of high stress.
After lockdown, planning a day out with the kids seemed an incredibly difficult task, booking stuff, no spontaneity. Still can't just turn up at places now. Prior to lockdown, weekends were full of adventures. We're only just getting back to that point, but now DC1 is a teen and not as interested.
And I say all this as a parent who is hugely invested in my kids, I do all the research, try and have clear boundaries, limit screens and junk food, enforce homework, value play and stories and music. My kids are, largely, well behaved at school. But those 2 years broke my family and that's the truth. Kids suffered. No wonder they're anxious and reactive.

I think there is some truth in the poster who says that sure start wasn't always accessed by the people it was intended for.

However, I have always thought that sure start was monopolised by middle-class women. If you walk into one of these places and feel out of place, it's hard to come back again.

Me, I'm brazen and they can all fuck off. I always knew my kid was the best, but I'm atypical. It's really hard when you feel you're being politely frozen out.

Many of you will have felt this at some time in their mummy life, whether it's the weigh ins, the school run, the kids parties. This feeling that they're a group and you don;t belong. It would be even harder in a place where you may want to seek support and feel vulnerable, like sure start.

If childcare were responsible for the fairly sudden decline in behaviour of children it would have become apparent about 30 years ago. Think of the US where there’s no maternity leave. In the U.K. most women take at least a year. I know very very few who have gone to full time childcare before then.

I also hate that SEN is automatically blamed. There’s an increase in SEN but I think that’s a separate issue. Although I do believe we are labelling some things as SEN that have different causes, mainly neglect and trauma. The dc with diagnosed SEN that I know, even one with profound needs, do not hit teachers, swear at teachers, hit other children or thrown things. They are not disruptive in class. Their struggles impact them. It’s not a given that all children with SEN are wildly disruptive!

I've posted a few times on here and I find the thread really interesting. I live overseas and think there's a much higher set of expectations of how kids should behave vs UK. I have a 3.5 yo son who has been displaying violent behaviour since moving from nursery to preschool and in his frustration/anger he bites, throws, hits. He knows it's wrong and he's been given alternative ways of expressing his anger and yet he can't control it at the moment and its not through lack of parenting, ive tried everything- hes been behaving like this at home for a long time but now its spilled into preschool. But I feel that judgement and shame from everywhere. What's been conflicting is that his school teachers and pediatrican here are alarmed by his behaviour and he's been referred to a child psychologist. The one native English teacher there thinks his behaviour is "OK and he's just being 3, cant see what the fuss i about" and I spoke to a friend in the UK who's a pediatrician and she said she thought some kids just take longer to emotionally develop and it wasn't a big deal and that he was too young to be in preschool. Why are the expectations so different?
He's in montessori setting and kids (from 3) are expected to come in and independently, take their shoes off, tidy them away, put on slippers, hang up their coat, put water bottle away, go to the toilet themselves. Inside there are alot of rules to follow, each kid has accountability for their own area for keeping tidy, if they play with something they have to tidy it away afterwards, they tidy up their plates at lunch etc. It's what's expected. I'm not convinced on the montessori setting long term but there are some benefits.

Here they also have public funded play centres with child psychologists and experts that you can go to for advice if needed. They also have free toy libraries and play centres full of toys that you can take your kids to - mobile phones are banned so parents cant just sit there playing on their phones. So there is definitely more support if you are struggling and everything in place to guide you in the right direction.

School is really rigorous too, designed so that not everyone goes into higher education just those who are academically able to, more exams. Kids are expected to study hard. Again not sure what I make of that but I do think more is expected from kids here.
To be honest it shows, I don't see any antisocial behaviour from kids in parks, buses, etc - the kids all seem to be well behaved.

And to the posters saying nursery and wraparound is the problem - you’re talking shit. We teachers - the ones who teach your children - have to use childcare as our days can’t fit in with school drop offs and collections. We then work at home. I still manage to converse with my children, read to them, help them with homework etc.

I agree with the poster that if we could teach 60 x 1 minute lessons, we would keep the attention of students. Even in my outstanding school behaviour isn’t what I would call “outstanding”. I may not be called a “cunt” to my fave anymore but I battle against continual talking, apathy and rudeness. It’s exhausting. I try to model good behaviour - “good morning/afternoon”, a smile, “please/thank you”, polite reminders about expectations - but nothing works because en masse the pupils I teach want Grade 9 and it’s MY job to get them that grade, taking all responsibility from them. Tbf, they have a better chance of getting higher grades in my class than the other 2 classes taught by cover supervisors, but that’s not the point.

Come on! I went to school in the 80s and there was zero bum smacking - children just knew what was expected from both teachers and parents. Parents and teachers were all on the same page, setting standards and modelling appropriate behaviour.

I'm a current primary teacher and the thought of smacking "a bottom a couple of times when necessary" seems ridiculous and horrifying in equal measure! 😳

I took mine to the local surestart centre, it was on the middle deprived area of town and was brilliant.

There was a specific group for young mums and another for parents with children with SEN. It disappeared.

My DS does have ASD. He didn't have access to.a small screen such as a tablet or a phone until he was 7. He doesn't stay up to midnight playing games. His brain is just built a bit different.

I think it is a combination of things, low income families struggling in over crowded housing, too tired or overwhelmed to parent. A lack of respect in some families for teachers and parents unwilling to assert boundaries. The ease and convenience of devices. Covid. A Conservative government who just don't give a shit about children.

I think there may be some truth in this. I'm an educated mum who had children later in life so took time off work, and could afford clubs and swimming etc. A group of us went to some baby classes at the local Surestart centre but we could have gone elsewhere.

When DS was 2 I suspected possible issues so took him to a parenting class at the centre. They were great - suggested he start pre-school (which I was fortunate enough to be able to afford) so I did, and the staff there were fantastic helping me get his ASD diagnosis.

Meanwhile I attended a local authority parenting course - every wednesday afternoon for ten weeks or whatever. It wasn't overly helpful as our issues related to what turned out to be SEN rather than 'normal' parenting problems - but we didn't know that at the time. But I noticed that all the parents who turned up regularly were people like me - well educated, with no personal issues, just wanting to do the best for their children. We could probably have learned the same from reading a few books. But for the first two weeks a young couple came with their daughter, and they were clearly desperately in need of support. They were also very uncomfortable about being in a 'class', speaking in front of others, etc. Their child wouldn't go to bed apparently - she was about three and wandered about doing her own thing, with a snotty nose, and they were clearly out of their depth. The chap kept on and on about going to the pub.

I think they had been referred by some body or other - but they stopped coming after a couple of classes as I think they just felt too uncomfortable. It's such a shame - but the council put on these amazing resources and it's the wrong people who go! You can't make people attend, even if they would really benefit - and also perhaps having some there who don't need it so much may make those struggling parents feel even more out of their comfort zone.

I don't know the answer - how to reach those most in need - but maybe these centres and courses aren't the best way?

I work in a school and it's the same for things like parents evening. The articulate, engaged, supportive parents all come along and the ones that the teachers really want engage with are often the ones who don't.

Or could it be that Reception as currently embodied is a disaster as a concept?

In other countries, four year old children are still in some kind of preschool environment, or at home.

This is shocking

Too many parents not parenting, kids left with iPads or screens etc from 2 years old, fed UPFs mixed with lockdown all a recipe for disaster. It’s acceptable for kids to misbehave nowadays so no wonder they do it at school. Don’t know what the answer is but parents need to take on responsibility for their children. Awful reading nursery and teachers stories nowadays :(

I don't believe this. I'm a single parent full-time job and I am there for my DC, have always read to them, answered any questions they've had, taken them to interesting places, played games with them, taken them to after-school clubs, scouts/cubs, attended all their parents eve and put in place that they know I will always be there for them, but there will be consequences if they are rude to me or teachers and that I am not their servant and that they have to be respectful and treat others as they are treated. If they get told off at school, I back the consequences imposed by the school. They didn't have a tablet when younger unless on a flight, where they shared my tablet. They only got their own tablets when pretty much a requirement for second lockdown schooling and then didn't get phones/consoles until secondary. I don't know how my DC will turn out academically, but they seem to fit in, are resilient, have manners and are respectful at the moment and whilst I expect this to continue to be tested during their teenage years, I have no reason to think that they won't be this way at the end of teenage years.

@Mumma2024
I'm so sorry that your dad was treated so badly, and he was - but that doesn't invalidate my comment. I taught in the 70s and at one stage taught 37 6-8 year olds in a deprived area in a leaky portacabin (Labour government, if I remember correctly). I probably smacked a bottom a couple of times when necessary, but the knowledge that it would happen if there was bad behaviour was enough to stop bad behaviour in its tracks. And, no. The children weren't afraid of me. We had fun times. But there were boundaries. And I was never sworn at, never had a chair thrown at me....

Not in late 80s and 90s it was not.

It's been 6 years since my youngest left school but even back then there were teachers who expressed surprise when I backed the school up for disciplining my child. Only minor infractions but I always said to my kids if you break the rules, you pay the price. Sadly, there are too many parents now who just constantly make excuses for their kids bad behaviour and teachers don't get the back up to discipline.