To think change is desperately needed in schools?

Some of this sounds similar to our situation. I do realise we're lucky but I hope you can get some help. The school senco screened our daughter initially - don't know if you can request that? I hope you get some answers.

This is what I'm worried about with my DCs in their (state) school.

My DD is very bright and has been from a young age. She has the most amazing memory. She was exceeding in reading for the first three years, but has now gone down to expected and has made little progress this year. They're not really bothered as to find out why, though I suspect she relies too much on sight reading and not using phonics, as her spellings are the same (she remembers them visually and can remember really hard ones if she memorises them, but makes silly mistakes like 'geat' for 'great'.)

Her handwriting is also pretty bad and she has an odd pencil grip (but again, noone picked up on this, I suggested she use a rubber pencil grip not knowing if this was the right thing to do, it has seemed to help slightly and they're fine for her to use it, but it was down to me to realise).

She's definitely not reaching her potential, but because she's reaching expected levels, they don't really care.

She does likely have some ND issues which she is on the pathway for, but again, this took a lot of pushing from me; again because she's mostly 'fine' in school (aside from meltdowns going in and a few idiosyncrasies), they don't really care - they're too busy dealing with all the kids who are acting out in school.

Unfortunately we can't afford private school, but I am going to look into an educational psychologist assessment and tutoring.

And my younger DS, bless him. Likely no ND, but he is quite quiet and sensitive and in a quite ND-heavy class (including a child still in nappies, one who throws chairs due to family trauma, a few others with ASD), he just gets a bit lost.

I don’t feel defensive personally. There is nothing anyone could say to make me feel bad about nursery as my kids are doing so well as young adults and we are closer than ever.

@LondonerCalling And quite right, you shouldn’t feel bad. Tbh from what I’ve observed of my friends kids, the working mums with kids in nursery have no less well behaved or well adjusted kids, than the ones who stayed at home and their children didn’t attend nursery.

Actually in many cases ime, the latter are less well behaved -and that’s not because their parents stayed at home of course but it’s more the fact my friends who were at home with their kids from 0 to 5, tend to be the same parents who are less educated, from poorer socio economic backgrounds, have less traditional family set ups (eg. boyfriends around young kids etc ) and were raised with less ambition which then gets passed down to the kids.

To be clear obviously many SAHM are well educated, stable families etc and I have those friends too - the ones who were supported to stay at home not by benefits but by their partner etc, but I’m just talking about what’s more common in my social circle.

And when I worked as a support worker in schools most of the parents in need of the most parenting help and intervention were actually long term unemployed/didn’t work . That’s why they were always around for the coffee mornings I organised. We had far less issues with more career oriented parents.

@LondonerCalling
Agree 100%.
DH and I both teachers, I have up to have DD and have a flexi job that fits in around limited nursery and soon school drop off and pick ups.
Meanwhile DH carries on as normal in our chosen profession and has a decent pension, whereas I don't. If I decided to go back to teaching and we need more nursery and then wraparound childcare, I'm pretty sure it's me that would be vilified for this and not him. I actually enjoy my current job but as it's WFH I'm seen as having no career (actually did exams post teaching for this too!) He agrees btw and thinks it v unfair.
As an ex primary teacher with over a decade of skin in the game, I can confidently say that even kids in nursery who parents actually you know, parent them and are involved are much better off than those who don't, or rely on screens

This is rather full of cliches.

The thing is, you carefully use words like ‘caregiver’ but you mean mothers don’t you. It was always women staying home. This led often to power imbalances and unhappy mums. It’s a great thing for equality that women work. Great for the next generation too. It’s possible to have a child at nursery and still spend lots of time with them and raise lovely kids with great behaviour and aspirations.

I don’t feel defensive personally. There is nothing anyone could say to make me feel bad about nursery as my kids are doing so well as young adults and we are closer than ever.

Work can be beneficial for mental health and equality. And we cannot go back to the woman staying home as default. Our babies grow up to be adults. We need to look after them as young kids of course but also work to create an equal environment for our daughters for when they become adults.

It might be ‘better’ in some ways but that’s not the same as being harmful. Like many of our friends, both mums and dads worked full time from an early age, using nurseries. And some didn’t. Our kids are all content and thriving at university now, close to their families still and you cannot tell who used which kind of childcare. Genuinely. Something can be ‘not ideal or perfect’ but also not have a longer term negative impact.

I was always really conscious of this (best friend is a teacher and I knew what a nightmare it was for her to have 30 sets of parents stopping to chat every day) so I never bothered the teacher, did loads of work with my daughter at home for the first 18 months but it got to the stage where she never had a reading book or any phonics sounds and so I asked why and the teacher said she's up to the required standard so she needed to focus on those who weren't. I questioned it a couple of times and they just kept saying "she's flying". But i knew something wasn't right and then my daughter was crying every evening and being sick in class and being sent home (and couldn't go back in for 48hrs)- all anxiety. At that point we made the decision to move her to a private school - after a couple of weeks I had a call from senco and she's since been diagnosed with dyslexia - throughout she was exceeding expected standard for Maths and English so it just wasn't being picked up. But obviously there was an issue. She is absolutely thriving now and so happy in her school. But it shouldn't have to be that way. I don't blame the teacher as such - she was clearly under so much pressure that she was probably just trying to survive but it shouldn't be that way.

I am halfway through the thread and rather depressed at how many women are blaming the problems on mothers working.

Yes, as I said earlier ignoring the structural issues (in favour of bleating on about horrible parents) is stupid.

I feel like we have been in a lucky bubble. Our kids have just left school (private London day school) for university in the last two years. Their friends are delightful young people, polite, bright and fun. They had phenomenal teachers. In fact only a couple of poor ones in their entire lives. And the teachers seemed pretty happy; I am in touch with a couple still. There was no disruption of lessons and high quality teaching and zero violence.

Socioeconomic factors thus must surely be a huge factor. There were kids with ND but who were able academically and they thrived. There was some bullying but that was always managed assertively and there was pretty much little tolerance of bullying by peers. There were some dickhead wealthy parents around but kids didn’t tolerate showing-off. But having no real financial worries must play a part.

Our kids didn’t have phones till Y7. Neither did their friends. Maybe that helped? We both worked full time which didn’t seem to have an impact on behaviour so I am not sure that’s a huge factor here.

Is this now a reflection of poorer behaviour in society all-round. There are many revolting people around. Adults who are rude to waiting staff, who have road rage, who spout bile online etc. These people become parents who don’t instil good behaviours in their children. The kids don’t stand a chance then and neither do the schools. Schools are seeing the problems in society from an earliest stage. It’s scary. I feel sorry for the good teachers who are trying to teach and the decent kids who are trying to learn. My gut feeling is that it can’t all be down to genuine ND.

I went to school in the 70s and 80s and was quite scared of some teachers. That was not right either.

It is a shame to read this. My children had such a positive experience. My daughter is back from uni and has been into school to collect her A-Level certificates. She was sooo excited to catch up with her lovely teachers and be treated as an ‘adult’ by them. She said they were so nice and acted happy to see her. And she also admitted that she had always had a secret crush on her (young good-looking) maths teacher ;-)

Schools should not have to deal with this behaviour.

There need to be more places at specialist schools for SEN children. All this everyone at mainstream schools doesn't work for both the SEN children & the ordinary ones, neither get the attention & teaching that they need. When ds was in primary there was a boy with severe ADHD & the number of times the whole class had to be locked either in or out of their classroom because he was going crazy throwing tables & chairs or just walked out of class & started destroying the school, this child was 6, he even managed to climb over the 10 foot wire fence & escaped which meant half of the teaching staff & the police had to go looking for him. Mainstream school is not the right place for many children with SEN but because it is cheaper than a specialist school they just get dumped there.

I was a kid back then too. Children were scared and beaten onto behaving isn't quite the argument you think it is

Education isn't just about teachers though.its also a restrictive, archaic curriculum and the pressure of Ofsted. Teachers aren't free to be the teachers they want to be.

I guess some parents are stressed and overworked too and not always free to be the parents they want to be.

I agree It's not just SEN diagnosis. Our school is excellent and very understanding at diagnosising Sen and helping children. Despite this there are still huge behavioural issues from children of all backgrounds

I also agree that the awful curriculum has a lot to answer for. It does not engage children to learn at all

I feel.so bad for school staff. As a parent, I've noticed behaviour deteriorate. I have an 11 year old in y6 and 8 year old in y3. The difference in behaviour between their years is astonishing.

My 8 year old comes home frequently upset about the behaviour in her class. Two tea hers have left after periods of sickness now the current one is off a lot. I don't blame him! The stories she tells me. She says she tries to tell children what they're doing us wrong... Just today she said kids always say back they always say we don't get told off for it so we're not doing wrong. an 8 year old figured it out! They do it because they're allowed to Mostly at home.

One of her friends who is quite posh broke stuff at our house. Her mum let her off. She hit my daughter and stole her stuff round her house. Her mum let her off. So many times this mum refuses to discipline her daughter.

The boys in her class are physically violent, cheeky and rude.

And the children two years below her look even worse. I witnessed three, 5 or 6, physically attack another boy relentlessly in the school play area after school.

I don't know how teachers cope.

@WhenIsTheGeneralElection

They couldn't get rid of me fast enough and there was no sense of me being involved or wanted at all

I don't think there is time to include parents - 30ish kids arriving, lesson to prepare, stuff to do after school for the following day. I rarely spoke to primary school class teachers. What were you wanting to get involved in?

It’s not even that some teachers are awful (although obviously there are poor performers and wankers in every profession), it’s that the culture in teaching has become so toxic. It’s a constant mixture of defensive and combative which makes schools a horrible place to work and learn, and makes collaboration between home and school impossible.

Parenting has changed. Values have shifted. That is 100% normal, and largely neutral. Things get ‘better’ in some ways and ‘worse’ in others, and it’s subjective- my improvement will be someone else’s degeneration.

Society doesn’t stand still- how things were even 10 years ago has little relevance, and what it was like when adults were at school is completely obsolete.

Our culture is not automatically deferential anymore, and teachers are not looked up to (for a whole host of reasons).

Obviously a system with 1 adult to 30 kids relies on automatic deferral to the authority figure to function- and that simply isn’t as strong a trait in any area of society now

For example, if a police officer stops someone in the street the person is more likely to start filming and demand their badge number than they are to remove their hat and say yes officer no officer, if a doctor in a long white coat gives his opinion, the patient is quite likely to trot off and get an opinion they prefer elsewhere, if a train conductor wants someone off a train they will likely need backup and force, because telling someone isn’t going to cut it-

Teaching will have to change to reflect this because you can’t force society back into a value position it has moved on from, and grumbling and complaining about who’s to blame is a waste of time.

I'm also uncertain about this idea that SEN is to do with lack of discipline from parents.

I am an ASD adult, but I was brought up by my (very lovely and caring) school teacher Mum to look NT.

The result was that I got fantastic grades in school and university, and then crashed totally when I left home. I had the skills to pass exams like a pro, but the life skills were not there.

However, I think the overly fast curriculum also has a huge amount to answer for these days. My son was on the ropes all through primary school and it was so hard to teach him any real life stuff when he was constantly exhausted and strung out in the evenings and at weekends.

Okay, fair enough. There are definitely some awful teachers.

However, has the overall quality of teaching declined to as much as standards of parenting?

However, I think as previously discussed, the demands placed on the curriculum, so as to put so much academic pressure on children has definitely had an effect.

It is a multi-faceted issue.

And actually, I think in many ways, the standards of parenting have increased. Many parents are more involved, more nurturing, more hands-on and loving than previous generations.

However, I also think many other parents are much lazier nowadays and want to blame anything other than themselves for their children's behaviour. I think there's also less shame about their children's development and behaviour.

I really 100% agree with this. When my son started school I thought it would be a collaborative effort between parents and children, with shared plans and team work, but I was treated like an inconvenience from the start. They couldn't get rid of me fast enough and there was no sense of me being involved or wanted at all. I really found it bizarre. No teacher has every suggested that I parent diferently and if they are thinking it then they are definitely not saying it.

@dontthinkicantakethisanymore Blimey, that's awful. I'm so sorry to hear it.

How on earth are you meant to fit all that stuff into the week though? It sounds superhuman.

When I was in KS2 we had this brilliant teacher and he used to give us a little bit of maths and English in the morning and then lots of free time to work with Cuisinaire rods and whatever we needed to do to work on our own difficulties.

The slow readers were allowed a good book, and the slow counters had the rods. Those of us who finished early got a piece of newsprint to do a drawing on, and if we finished that then we got a little electric motor and a battery to make into a helicopter with our ruler.

In the afternoon he told us a story, jackanory-style, about volcanoes or something like that. Once a week we went to the head master and he taught us recorder.

There wasn't anything like the amount of structured stuff that you are trying to do with your class and we had loads of time to just think and work out stuff.

Yes, I totally agree.

My DD, although not yet diagnosed, is on the pathway for ASD diagnosis. She has huge struggles with changes to routine and sensory issues. She sometimes gets distressed about going to school, behaviour which she does exhibit in the school office. She does not however hit or swear at teachers or other children. She is perfectly compliant in class. In the office the other day, a year one child was screaming at a TA and calling them a *ing c**. That child is obviously just modelling behaviour they have seen at home. I bet the parents are going to be claiming SEN in a couple of years.

To say the problems with the education system is nothing to do with teachers- the very people who make up half of that system, is just daft.

It can not be an army of wonderful, unfailing teachers struggling against a sea of horrible children and parents- the world just doesn’t work like that.

Students and teachers have a symbiotic relationship where each impacts and relies on the other, it is not as simple as one being good and the other bad.

No improvement is possible while people are wedded to that idea.

"Do you think there is any chance that the curriculum could be changed to be less demanding, especially in primary school, and with more science, music and art? "

@WhenIsTheGeneralElection This is on the curriculum at the primary I'm in every week: Reading, Maths, English, RE, Science, PSHE, MFL (French/Spanish), Music, PE, Computing, Art & DT, History & Geography.

For those lessons it's not just bums on seats and endless powerpoints either. Yes there's input but that's about 20mins and then there's, for example, investigating using mixed resources, discussion on tables, collaborative learning, experiments, short videos and then the last 20 mins or so is writing up in books. However, even 20mins focus is too much for some pupils in UKS2 - we've got a large 5 min timer on the wall as that's all some kids can manage before they need a movement break (a run around on the playground). Even with movement breaks they are still dysregulated and disrupting learning in class, in some cases purposely taking other people's water bottles and hiding them ("it's a joke, can't you take a joke") or yelling out swear words to get a reaction from anyone (and children being kids react and laugh, so job done!), or just walking out of class shouting "I'm not doing that!".

And this is every day. In every lesson.

[Meanwhile I have other kids with SEN who are trying to focus and get their work done, trying to manage the regular disruption.]

I'm not sure that parenting was that great in the past though.

When I was a child we all played out for hours on end and nobody was parenting us then. We used to go through people's gardens and into abandoned land, and into abandoned houses. We played on building sites, and kicked footballs hard against people's garage doors, making a tremendous noise. We also played on building sites, and occassionally got seriously injured. We skip-dived after dark. Nobody was parenting us then.

At the same time, I remember clearly in the 70s and 80s that children were regularly beaten in the street, just for being too tired. It was a common occurrence to hear the following interaction in the shopping street in my home town:

Child: Tired and grumbling "Mum, I want [indecipherable mumbling]"
Mum: Shut it! [thump - Mum clumps child on side of head with hand.]
Child: Wahhhhhh!!!!!!!! child wails and then sobs inconsolably, and at length.

I'm not sure that this was "good" parenting but it did get us a lot of exercise, and the kids with the thick ears certainly learned to express emotion articulately.