To think change is desperately needed in schools?

I think one thing that is forgotten when comparing pupil behaviour to "the old days" is how many more pupils with significant SEN are taught in mainstream schools, and how significant the needs of children in specialist schools are. In the old days many of these most high needs pupils would not have been in school but in an institution.

I am not advocating for a return to this but there are undoubtedly pupils whose needs are so significant it is pretty much impossible for them to be in a school environment without posing a risk to staff.

School staff generally aren't expected to use physical restraint and even if they are trained to do so it is strongly discouraged. So what are they supposed to do when a teenager with the understanding of a pre-schooler lashes out?

@ChaosAndCrumbs Whilst some of what you say isn't wrong, you're preaching to the wrong choir. My DD has an EHCP, more diagnosis than you can throw a stick at, through NHS and Private, so I am well aware of the pitfalls of the system. I am not saying it is easy and I am not saying parents aren't trying.
However, I am also aware of what money gets you and the attitudes parents are passing onto their kids.

Agreed. In the same day, two young women were injured in two separate incidents in my school. (I’m on supply.)

One was badly bruised and simply requested that the culprit be removed from her class for a couple of days. HT refused.

The other woman was pregnant. Thankfully, the baby is okay.

20 yrs ago, I wasn’t so lucky. I keep myself sane by telling my I would probably have lost it anyway - I was in my 40s. Didn’t know for certain that I was pregnant until I lost it the next day - very early on and I thought it was possibly menopause. No medical record of a pregnancy, so I couldn’t prove anything.

Police ‘lost’ the statements.

I feel for graduate employers and I know that we’re not doing students or you any favours with the relentless focus on student voice and student experience.

They’re learning to devalue expert knowledge whether that’s academic or professional because we keep asking them ‘what do you think’, which implicitly elevates student experience to the status of knowledge.

Of course they ought to have a say, but it would be helpful to acknowledge that it’s not the voice of professional or pedagogical knowledge and experience. Again though, govt encouraging students and parents to view HE through a highly commodified and instrumental lens. It’s only natural that they start thinking this.

Like some others on here, I don’t think there is any one reason for the decline in behaviour. There are a number of factors that impact schools, most of which have already been mentioned. I don’t think blaming parents or blaming teachers is particularly helpful.

I also think it’s a reflection on society as a whole. People seem to be less tolerant and more interested in their own personal wants than ever before.

Some children do act completely feral but some adults seem incapable of acting any better. I’ve seen a fair few people who put their own entitlement above everything else. Parking where they want, expecting everyone else to get out of their way in shops, whining because someone else might have something that they don’t. If we’re going in this direction as a society then you can’t expect children to behave any better.

Timeturnerplease This is the perfect upbringing for your children and it is such a shame the majority of children in our country will never have this, too many of our children spend more hours in a childcare setting than they do with their family and unfortunately for some children when they do spend time with their parents, their parents are too busy with their heads in a phone. I think many parents need to be honest with themselves and track their usage, my Daughter was on her phone more than 5 hours a day when she was at home with her baby, she was really shocked when she realised and it shocked her enough to put her phone down. 2000 hours of her daughters life she will never get back, 2000 hours when her baby didn't see her Mummy's face only the back of a phone ! And we wonder why some children can't make eye contact.

I’ve never thought about this but you’re right. DD1 was looked after by grandparents four days a week until she started preschool at 3, and DD2 is 2.5 so still with them. They did/do no formal classes but spent/spend their days playing with books, baking, helping FIL in the garden, walking up to the village with MIL to have coffee and cake….just pottering really.

Obviously in an ideal world DH or I would be the ones at home (though then we woudn’t be able to afford to feed them!), but I fully credit this relaxed toddlerhood for their great behaviour, concentration and social skills.

It’s a shame that this can’t be the norm for early childhood.

This just isn’t true. Random assessments that don’t fit NICE guidelines are broadly not accepted. In fact, the issue is more that we - as parents - can’t go private easily when the NHS waiting lists are 6 years long. Even the GPs aren’t clear about this. Ours had to phone the ND teams (one for ASD and one for ADHD) and not only got different answers from each but also can’t actually recommend any providers that do stick to NICE guidelines, so it’s all on the parents and if they get it wrong they risk removal from the excruciatingly long waiting list.

We parent differently due to the needs of our children. We still have strong boundaries and clear rules. The behaviour being caused by type of parenting, attachment issues or trauma has to be ruled out at diagnosis.

A lot of us are stuck doing our best every day, spending hours de-escalating, carefully framing every demand, sticking to rigid routines, prepping a sensory bag for whenever we leave the house, going into school when needed, filling out long paperwork, listing and recording everything we’ve tried and it’s failure or limited success, visiting the GP so these issues are recorded by someone other than just us, making referrals to multiple different services (assessment, sensory needs, sleep clinic, food clinics etc are all different referrals) and trying to make our children feel loved and appreciated.

Our children are stuck without diagnoses that give them access to medication and a way to explain their needs to adults who don’t get it. They’re put through the stress of having to try and explain these needs and often getting little to no help.

I’ll never forget how grateful I was when my ds started to near meltdown in a museum and a member of staff (who clearly had training/experience) came over and gave him a sunflower to wear, allowing us to queue to the side away from others and go into the exhibit early for him to calm down. This tiny act made the world of difference and if more people could be like that member of staff, I think we’d find our children with ND etc would have the space to develop their own techniques much more effectively. Equally, for ADHD medication is first line treatment now and cannot be received without diagnosis (or at least lots of assessment and ruling out other issues) which is obviously the way it should be, but also means when the pathway to assessment/diagnosis is years long and tough, that (sometimes vital) treatment is delayed and the child is the one who suffers.

We need early intervention and support - and less of the myths around falsifying these diagnoses.

Lots of grandparents are just too busy. Mil emergrated when ds2 was born. In my case they all of them either too busy or living their best lives. Mil wants to be involved but she isn't present. Lots of times I have wanted advice or support or knowledge but when you say stuff like dd has been suspended 3 times, there's better grandkids doing well so it's easier to focus on the smart GC. Because there is little bond or understanding when your not present through the grind and the good times.

Even Mil says about how idilic dh grandparents was and ditto for hers but can't grasp that they was present where she is unwilling to be oresent.

Times change and if you live longer with more cash you don't want to engage in daily grind. You swoop in for the good bits only.

My mil threatened to report us to SS when we left our 16 old home alone. She'd die if she knew what my kids are struggling with at school. My late mum would just say "I'd smack them" in fact that's her answer to everything. It's just a rose tinted view

Things definitely have to change. I think most parents are pretty good at discipline and boundaries but kids are really unhappy in school because they do not feel safe. Behaviour is a communication. Schools are not in the bloody real world and 21st century.

At secondary school the discipline is just off the scale and good kids are being treated like felons from the start, it's completely ridiculous and all wrong.

Read this and weep.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/naomi-fisher-psychologist_recently-i-talked-to-a-young-person-who-told-activity-7175462949703024640-3L5Z/

LostBoys16 You say Grandparents etc feel no responsibility to the younger children of the family but you only have to read threads on here where many mothers hate anyone but themselves even holding their baby. Many mothers see themselves as the Madonna and won't allow any other adult to go near their child even fathers are treated like a threat. What are the rest of the "village" meant to do when they are frozen out?

In Scotland standard started to plummet when the dire Curriculum for Excellence was introduced. As if that wasn't enough, everything has to be play based now up to P3 and some suggest for the whole of primary school. Our school was very traditional in the early years, teaching children their sounds, numbers, reading etc. Now everything is to be play based so children choose what they want to do. The teacher isn't meant to intervene and steer them in the direction of something educational so they can literally play all day. My ex colleagues absolutely hate it and can see standards falling since this was introduced.

In my last years, I was an SEN teacher, giving 1-1 or small group support to the ever increasing numbers of pupils needing help. As there were virtually no supply teachers available, I was continually made to cover for absent colleagues so the children never got their time with me. I wish their parents had gone to the press as that's the only way our LA does anything.

There's no discipline or boundries. Obsession with happiness. People want their kids to be happy 24/7 and are surprised when they break down at the slightest bit of discomfort because they've not been taught any resilience. They've never heard someone tell them to just get a grip and get on with it.
We've (rightly) become a lot more accepting and informed of things like high functioning autism, ADHD, Dyslexia etc but it has open the floodgates for wealthy parents to leave £3k at the doors of a dodgy Harley St psychiatrist that'll give them a piece of paper which absconds them of any responsibility. These parents would not be doing this if it's wasn't socially acceptable. Oh he/she has xyz you've got to make allowances. You can't even use the word disabled anymore but they're happy to quote disability discrimination if they need to. It's all a joke and people aren't prepared to take any responsibility for their actions. It's also causing kids who come from homes where there are those expectations in place, to resent their parents as 80% of their peers have parents who will go to lala land in their defence.

So many issues contributing to this that people just don't want to talk about because each and every one of us would have to take some of the blame and question our direction as a society.

Like the appalling lack of respect displayed throughout society as a whole. The me, me, me attitude that puts the individual before society. The lack of pride in community, lack of unity, everyone having an us against them mentality.

The fact that womens' rights and equality has been hijacked by the greedy and unscrupulous to ensure that two working parents are unable to provide a decent standard of living where previously one could provide for the whole household. How can anyone teach their child all the life skills they should be learning at home when they're barely able to get home on time to put them to bed?

The norm in the breakdown of the family, not only between parents but also extended family. The attitude of many grandparents/aunts/uncles etc. that feel they have no responsibility towards the next generation of their own families and the parents who reject that help when it is offered because they don't want 'people interfering'.

Teachers who are forced to spend more time on admin than actual teaching, heads who are driven to suicide by ofsted reports, an inept government whose educations policies are not fit for purpose.

A society which spends most of its time looking down at a screen like sedated zombies instead of actually looking at what's going on in front of their faces and interacting with real people face-to-face.

I could go on but I'd have to write a book. Are we seriously baffled as to why schools are in a mess? Isn't it painfully obvious?

Nothing good can ever come of a society that can't care for its young or its old and we're failing on both.

I do not condone hitting kids, ever. But kids feel unsafe nowadays. There is far far too much choice given to them. I'm shocked at the amount of parents on this site that cook different dinners, that give their 10 year olds the responsibility of choosing a school but at the same time won't let them play outside or walk to school alone. It's so twisted and kids really don't have any safe boundaries. It's the reason why so many schools are having to resort to military style behaviour policies. I genuinely don't think most schools want to take this approach, but they've had no other choice.

@fitzwilliamdarcy Exactly. You can see it with any new policy or rule put in place, adults are reacting just like these kids.

It was. Our classrooms were safe for the staff and the pupils. We all managed to learn. We could all read, write, count and spell. We all managed the transition up to senior school. We could go to the toilet ourselves, do our coats up, tie our laces and even tell the time. We also knew that if we had dared to misbehave in class we would have to face our parents and would get a rollicking from them too.
We have swung to far and it is time to find the middle ground.

I think we live in a society which coddles parents.

I have colleagues who cheerfully admit that their kids don't eat vegetables and eat chicken nuggets and chips most nights. The other parents immediately do the "as long as he's got food in his belly, nothing else matters" thing. Same with allowing hours of screen time - "a relaxed mum is a better mum".

They all exchange intel on which local nurseries are known for being able to fully teach toilet training, and which are known for being able to get kids reading if they've never been read to.

My parenting friends say similar things and absolutely heap praise one another for what seems to me to be little more than ensuring the vulnerable people they brought into the world don't starve. Any hint of disapproval and they turn on you with "mums' mental health is important!"

Parenting is hard but it's also a choice to undertake it. We just seem, as a society, to accept people doing the absolute least possible on the basis that at least they're not belting their children. I'm not surprised that these kids go into school and can't adhere to expectations, because they've never had any expectations to adhere to. And society says that's fine, because parenting is haaaaaaard.

People are saying change needs to happen at home first but how and why has it got to this? We are not always talking about deprived and vulnerable families. Often the worst behaved children are the ones from comfortable homes with professional parents (I’m a teacher). For change to happen we need to know the issue and I have no idea what it is anymore.

I will probably leave in the next few years too. I’ve had enough.

This is not designed to get people's backs up - my own kids go/ went to nursery. But as a society, we are now putting most kids in full time or close to full time childcare. The nurturing mum and child or family and child time that most kids grew up with is now replaced with 40 hours or more institutionalised childcare from about 1 year old. I do think that is having an impact on child development. Kids are being 'looked after' and not 'brought up' in these places, often by ever changing staff (young girls usually). It is bound to change how children behave as they grow up. I feel this is potentially one of several factors causing a mass decline in behaviour. I am in my 30s. Mosy people my age did not grow up.in childcare like most kids do now.

Do you mean £54 per month? 54 per session is insane! I thought I was paying a lot for £30 per month!
I agree with what people are saying about young children being given things like iPads isn't good for them Especially seeing as some parents have no limits and will literally let their kids stagnate All day in front of it.
But I disagree with some posters saying it's the parents fault if a child is quiet/shy, when I was young I was extremely shy and would barely speak to anyone until I was about 8. No exaggeration. I really hope no one ever blamed my parents or made snide comments to them because they really were good parents.😞

@OldChinaJug is so right.

this

Coming at this from another angle as the heavy rhetoric of blaming lazy parents on this thread is not the full picture.
Sometimes it is the culture of the school at fault (not teachers on an individual level) and strength of leadership is woeful. My son started primary school at a school with a strong structure and behavioural policy. Leadership was very robust. No issues. We then moved and from the day he started a new school his behaviour fell apart. He was aggressive, impulsive and emotional 85% of the time. We despaired – introduced play therapy, listened to the school’s concerns about SEN for him. But something never sat right with me – he had completed a year of school already with no issues and didn’t display this behaviour in any other setting. I volunteered at the school a number of times to gain some insight and the behaviour and way the class was conducted was shocking. I would try to lead my son but it was like he was on drugs, he completely spun out in the environment. Spending longer with the kids and parents socially, I learned that 8 out of 10 boys in that class were problematic, put on (poor) SEN provision, but yet didn’t display the behaviour at home. Another boy also joined mid year with no previous issues and rapidly declined in behaviour. The leadership and consistency of expectations and rules in the school was very weak.

After a full year I pulled my son from the school and put him in another with a reputation for structure and high behavioural expectations, with a known strong leadership team. From the day he started (and now 8 months on), he had no issues. The mother above also pulled her son and moved him to the same school – he improved immediately and dramatically.

There was NOTHING I could do with my son at home that would improve his behaviour at school. We tried everything and did everything the school asked of us. And after time I’m sure I became one of those belligerent parents because it became very obvious that the school culture was the problem – not just for my son but for the majority of those kids. And I got completely fed up of the school not taking any responsibility and their continued narrative that they were unlucky in receiving a high number of children with undiagnosed SEN.

For most of them, they had started in reception, so the parents knew no different and could only deduce it was SEN coming to light. We luckily had the previous experience and it was easier to see that it wasn’t that simple.

I sympathised with the teachers, A LOT, but in our case, for whatever reason, the problem was with the school environment.