To think change is desperately needed in schools?

Just to add to my previous post about a specialist place not being available for my DD. She actually had a CAMHs assessment today in the hope we might be able to access medication for her ADHD. Her severe ADHD that her mainstream school have to deal with everyday because she's never been medicated. Yeah, she isn't eligible for medication as CAMHs have said she isn't in the right setting (I know this..) and if she were then she wouldn't need medication.

So, that means her school will be continuing to deal with her unmedicated ADHD indefinitely, because there isn't a suitable setting for her and she doesn't deserve any support she can get to help her manage where she is.

I think there are a few left here and there, mainly in the cities and the odd major town.

There are none in my town or at all for a 30 miles radius - and we're a fairly deprived area.

My point being observational studies are unable to rule out that children with conditions that lead to mental and behavioural disorders may be more likely to receive steroids than other children.

A longitudinal cohort study can only identify associations not causation.

The JAMA study is a retrospective cohort study. As they themselves note, you cannot determine causation from such observational studies, in order to do that you would need a randomised controlled trial.

What do you call a very young age? It's very subjective and I bet there are few stats that back it up. In fact didn't the government give 'sahp' extra nursery time for free from age 2-3 because it would help the child's development?

We have not yet fully witnessed the consequences of locking up our children during COVID. I foresee a steep increase of MH issues that stem from the abuse we as a society subjected to our children.

I know I'm going to be called "judgy" but I do think kids being put in nursery from a very young age is a factor. The fact is that nursery staff have a lot of children to keep track of and aren't being paid much. Many of them just aren't that engaged. And obviously, they don't have the same investment in how a child "turns out" as a parent does.

This is from the Royal College of Obstreticians. I'm not saying that steroid use causes all the problems, it seems like only a small minority are possibly affected, I'm more saying there is probably loads of things in the environment and in food and medicines etc affecting us and we are none the wiser until someone does probably v expensive longitudinal cohort studies.

Get the military in. That'll sort it out.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. 100% agree, there are lots of reasons for the general downturn of behavior from the children. I would like to add to your list - early support such as sure start centers closing down, overwhelmed schools too many children per class lack of staffing, more entitlement from some parents thinking their child can’t do no wrong, lack of support for parents with SEN children, no respect, the list probably goes on further but I can’t think of anything more to add to your list.

While I absolutely agree with the OP that the current lack of discipline is dreadful, I'm very glad that the cane and belt are long-gone. We know so much more about child abuse now. I guarantee some of the teachers who delighted in caning children were nonces. When I was at school in the 00s, one of our teachers was completely unhinged - wasted most of the lesson screaming, would throw things across the room, made pervy comments to the girls, etc. The other teachers would even occasionally tell us they were amazed he hadn't been sacked yet, but no one did anything. I read in the paper after I left school that he'd been disciplined for being particularly aggressive to one girl, and there was actually a statement from the school saying that this was out-of-character for him!

Another teacher was very "odd" (with retrospect, I think he had autism) and a lot of the kids took the mick out of him in class. He was clearly too scared to stand up to them, so instead, he would single out quiet, well-behaved children and bully them in front of the class - it seemed to give him a sense of power. The thought of it being legal for either of those men to cane or belt children fills me with horror.

Yes that is true. However I can see the merit in their conclusion which I quote:

Despite the limitations of these papers, some tentative conclusions can still be drawn that may influence clinical practice, say specialist neonatal doctors in a linked editorial.

For example, they say reducing the frequency of mistimed antenatal corticosteroid administration should remain a focus for all health professionals working in this area, and emphasise the need for further high quality data investigating longer term outcomes in children who were exposed to mistimed antenatal corticosteroids.

They also point out their professional duty to fully counsel parents about the benefits as well as potential harms of any proposed treatment that could affect their offspring.

Finally, they say these studies “highlight the challenge of preventive treatments in fetal and neonatal medicine and should remind clinicians and parents that there is no such thing as a risk-free drug.”

This is from the JAMA who should know about this stuff?

I don't think teens are half as dependent on or addicted to their phones as grown adults TBH. They really use them for messaging more than anything. In my day I would ring my best friend up on the landline as soon as we got home from school. Same thing. Whereas adults spend hours on Mumsnet/Facebook etc and have their whole lives on there - banking apps, email, dating etc, fall into internet rabbit holes and so on. Teenagers are mostly using them for more traditionally social reasons.

I'm sure there are lots of reasons, but it is so easy now to avoid interaction and go through the day not talking to people, in shops, transport, work so little kids are missing out on these bits of interaction and so many times (tired) parents have their head in a phone rather than talking to the children. Even watching tv seems to be too much and people get their phones out, rather than watching something together and discussing. I think we are all so much more isolated and the hours pass away without actively choosing to do something, just tired browsing
(hypocritically this is typed on my phone as my toddler waits for me 🫣, just a quick break, honest)

yes, agree to this. Some teens especially appear, to be totally dependent on their phones for all their social and emotional needs. Teenagers are still developing empathy at this age, I read that the brain does not properly develop empathy until early 20s. I wonder what effect long term use of phone addictions will play out when these teens are adults.

There is nothing in either of those links to discounts whatever it was that triggered the intervention with steroids from being the cause of the mental and behavioural disorders, ie that steroids are merely a confounding variable.

I've always found younger people in the workplace set a far better example generally than their elders and are seriously impressive. The worst behaviour I've seen has been from partners in a law firm. Lazy and disorganised at work, unsupportive of others in the team or downright nasty, taking credit for others' work, bullying, dropping other team members in it, causing a large turnover of junior employees, drunken fighting at events and inappropriate sexual behaviour towards colleagues. All of it tolerated by their peers if they are seen to bring in the money.

The more male, senior and over remunerated people are the worse they behave and the more they get away with.

It's no wonder some children are badly behaved when they have that sort of example across the board in society from Gen X and boomers. Where you do you think they spring from?

I used to do kids parties at one time when my own kids were small and most groups were lovely. The worst behaved, messiest and rudest group by far were a bunch of ten year olds who all went to an expensive private school.

This rhetoric about working parents and grandparents is just a hugely ridiculous generalisation.

I didn't have any grandparents involved when I was a child and yet I was incredibly well behaved at school. My children sadly don't have grandparents as they are dead and we work FT but my children are well behaved!

My neighbour was childminder to her grandchild FT until she started school. She's now started school and can't cope because she's not used to being in such a setting! Another friend is a SAHM (in fact the only SAHM in my friendship circle) with fantastic support and input from grandparents and yet she's been repeatedly called into school regarding her child's awful behaviour.

I think there are two issues: (1) SEN - and that is a whole different issue and (2) bad parenting - and that has nothing to do with working FT or grandparents not being involved.

Hi I've put on a link pls see above.

Sorry I'm going to put links to what I said about steroid use in pregnancy. Sorry if it upsets anyone. Thays not my intention. Obviously its risks versus benefits:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2766162
Plus this is from bmj:
https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/new-studies-shed-more-light-on-potential-risks-of-antenatal-steroids/

@IncessantNameChanger you have to have a bit of sympathy for today's grandparents,(grandmas, let's face it) who have probably only just finished or are still working fulltime for themselves and I can't blame grandmas for then wanting a break after having caring duties probably for their own kids, been expected to work all the time upto 60+ (they are the 'women can have it all' generation that ended up doing everything), probably had caring duties for their own parents and then to be expected to be heavily involved in looking after their grandchildren as well....give the grandmas a break!

A lot of children would cope fine with mainstream secondary school if there were smaller class sizes and individual needs were met.

A lot of children would cope fine with mainstream secondary school if schools were even like how they were 15 years ago and not full of draconian rules and a one size fits all approach. People don't realise how much schools have changed in a short time and how bad they are now - most/lots of them.

A lot of children with ADHD/ASD are not badly behaved - not disruptive in class or naughty. School not meeting needs does not mean they have been disruptive in school. I wish (ignorant) people would stop equating one with the other.

As governor in a SEN school we don't have enough places for even the most profound needs. We are so, so short on places that getting to a point where parents are scared of a diagnosis is as likely as finding a cure to death.

I think as well that if you went back to having separate schools for SEN not so many parents would be keen to have their children diagnosed.

One little girl my dd is friends with parents think she has ADHD whereas a lot of her behaviour in my opinion is because they don’t enforce any boundaries, they don’t chastise her if she doesn’t listen to them or follow their instructions and they never say no to her. She’s a lovely little girl and she can follow instructions when I tell her to do something, but they’d rather blame it on something outside of their control.