Autism in babies…

Interesting!
DS diagnosed ASD aged 8 (although I'd suspected beforehand).
He was a very passive baby -- I was admitted late on in the pregnancy twice because of lack of movement in the womb.
He slept through the night virtually straight away. Slept too much tbh ... but as I had a 2 year old DD I was rather grateful.
Poor feeder. I constantly got mastitis because he would fall asleep at the breast after about 2 minutes.
But he absolutely refused to take the bottle. How we struggled :(
He was very often sick after feeding too.
He never crawled.
Didn't cry much.
A very late walker - he was over 2 years old before he got up and toddled.
Vocabulary was slow to develop, wouldn't look when you pointed out something, wouldn't hold a pencil at the health visitor 'milestone tests'.
Also failed his hearing tests but we knew he could hear. He just couldn't be bothered to listen LOL
But from age 3 he couldn't stop chatting about everything, and was fantastic at drawing.
He's a brilliant young man now :)

I am sorry but across my family and friends we would null your hypothesis.

From a family where ND is there so was on my radar. Both my children meet your happy baby, slept exceptionally well, met milestones early. Neither ND.

Family and friends had what could be classed as very high needs and milestones delay, no ND.

Five boys ND, three friends (2 boys 1 girl) across extended family, so eight with ND diagnose, all were middle of the road baby and milestones. 🤷‍♀️

Ideally early detection would be possible to assist parents but I be sceptical of the suggestion given my experience.

Disclaimer: I've not read the thread

My DS was a very, very unsettled baby. Nothing would soothe him and he just cried and cried. Even with my extensive SEN knowledge now I don't know if I would be able to make things better for him if I went back in time. Also feeding was a nightmare - he would constantly want to be on the boob, but was never satisfied. Then when we switched to bottles he would guzzle one in seconds then throw it all up.
He used to use his bouncer chair to propel himself up and down like he was about to eject himself from it - same with his highchair. Only settled once we bought a very expensive swing!
My sanity at the time was saved by very kind mumsnetters giving me some great advice and things to try.

I think this could be really helpful. I know some parents won’t want to hear that there’s an issue with their infant, but in hindsight from my own perspective, had there been an awareness that, for example, failure to latch/colic-crying/crawling to early when co-occurring, are indicators, then I could have had a fast track into additional support? Eg. measures such as additional SLT, and supported behaviour therapy for parents to do with their DCs from as early as possible could help any parent with an ND child.

One of my DSs has autism and it was v apparent as a baby. Didn't like to be held even as a very young baby. Didn't smile, just stared with big round eyes. Behavioural cues were there right from the beginning but obviously you can't diagnose until later.

I think ‘temperament’ is also important and how it interacts with ASD? Studies on attachment theory show that where a child falls on temperament charts (eg ‘slow to warm’/easy/difficult etc) are distinct factors when looking at impact of failed attachment. Also, ASD is an umbrella term used for an individual that displays a ‘cluster’ of behaviours or developmental issues. The two extremes of baby-type in the OP probably map onto two distinct groups of children within two clusters of overlapping issues? Eg the fractious/hard to settle ones may be more likely to develop into the ‘Aspergers’ cluster. (Or not, am talking out of my a*se LOL.)

However, I think studies are difficult to do unless ‘NT’ samples are empirically shown to be so - ie you can’t go on parental- or self-report of NT because ASD/ND’s are often not diagnosed until mid-late adulthood, and often missed because its highly heritable (ie parents are also ND so the behaviours seem normal) or there are multiple familial issues that are used to explain away behaviours/failure to thrive/emotional disregulation.

Ie, a psychologist could not take any of the comments by parents of ‘non ASD’ children about extreme behaviours mentioned above as empirically meaningful unless the have all been assessed and clinically excluded from an ND diagnosis?

A friend that is a psychiatrist says the research is pointing towards indicators being observed from babies only a few months old. But these indicators don't equate to diagnosis, but these babies may benefit from early intervention. Interesting concept really.

@SpeedyDrama With the knowledge we have today, I'd have probably been very worried about DS. He was so hyperactive too. As an adult, married and a parent, with a good job, he shows no ND signs at all. His wife agrees. His DC are NT too.

My two DDs, both NT, have ND children and both of their DC are quite severe and certainly there were red flags from a few months old, looking back, but then two of my three children could also have been described as having them too and they are definitely NT.

The difference between them is that the ND children had speech difficulties, pica, extreme tantrums, sensory issues, strimming, wouldn't answer to their names or make eye contact.

It's really not clear cut in the early years. The spectrum is so vast that many traits can be attributed to autism, without being so.

I have two children with Autism, 29 year old son and a 17 year old daughter. My son was a very passive, contented baby and I could leave him for long periods while my daughter was very clingy, unhappy and distressed, extremely fussy with her food.

My ds was basically the second child you describe. I have a good knowledge of asd and signs. I suspected he was autistic from around 9 months old. I involved salt and hv from around 20 month he saw the paediatrician at 26 months was on the pathway for 14 months. Diagnosed at 3.5 years

As PP have noted, the issue is many of the traits are also 'norma;' or grown out of.

I always knew DD was different, but accept the fact that it also could have gone the other way entirely.

This thread has had me thinking. Recently I’ve been concerned my 7 month old is displaying signs that my older 2 children didn’t. I know at this age he is a baby being a baby but autism runs in my family.
Eldest dd hit milestones early although was slow with speech and potty training. She is NT. middle child took longer to hit milestones but was within ‘normal’ range. Very shy and clingy up until mid primary school age. Shown signs of autism (imo) although no professional has ever agreed.
7 month old rarely cries, I can count on one hand how many times and usually only in extreme tiredness or hunger if he refuses a bottle. Rarely naps although sleeps very well overnight since 2 months old. Can say several words clearly but cannot sit up without falling to one side. He does roll around back to front and gets into crawling position. He is clingy but doesn’t mind being put down if I’m nearby. If I leave the room he makes noises that are clear he is unhappy but doesn’t cry. Prefers me holding him over anyone else. He won’t play alone for long, he prefers interaction. But what caught my attention most was the stimming. He kicks his legs and opens and closes his hands repeatedly, usually only when he’s excited. I’ve spoken to relatives who have SEN children and they don’t believe these are symptoms, but I am concerned I must admit. I see how much they struggle parenting their children and I don’t believe in myself that I could cope.
Your theory makes sense. I feel like my baby is in between the 2 extremes so should I stop panicking and revisit at a more diagnosable age? Did anyone else’s child have these symptoms and were NT?

My ex’s family would say he’s NT as well, he’s almost certainly autistic but it wasn’t recognised as such when he was a child. At best, anyone with more than passing knowledge would have seen Asperger’s traits but unfortunately even today people try and brush away what is wrongly called ‘high functioning’ autism as ‘not like real autism’. Hyperlexia (ability to read well as a toddler/preschooler) is a huge flag for autism.

It’s not impossible to diagnose autism before 2.5. It’s certainly not easy to get an official diagnosis due to the process but a high needs child presenting with more typical ASD traits certainly can be well into the diagnosis pathway before 2. My youngest was referred to a paediatrician with autism in mind at 19 months, the waiting list alone is so long that it’s taken 14 additional months to get that first appointment.

Severe autism can be suspected from 12 months possibly younger but higher level forms may not be noticeable until much older. So it's how long is a piece of string territory

My DS is NT. He screamed for hours from day one. Never slept through the night until he was a teenager. Walked confidently at ten months. Huge vocabulary at his first birthday, rode a bike without stabilisers at two and taught himself to read at two and a half.

My DGS is extremely ND. He screamed for hours on end. Still doesn't sleep in his teens. Walked at fourteen months, but on tiptoes. Had a good vocabulary, but it was all echolalia. He could reel off the entire script of his favourite shows, but still finds holding a conversation difficult. Still can't ride a bike or understand money, but his written work, which is only on his obsessive topic, is perfectly literate with the correct use of semi colons etc.

I believe that it's almost impossible to diagnose before two and a half when autistic traits become very noticeable.

Does PDD - NOS (I think that's what it's called?) still exist as a diagnosis or is everyone just given a diagnosis of Autism now?

I'm not sure why everyone seems to be coming up with quite frankly weird theories about Autism. There was one about sleep on here a few weeks ago too. I'm sure the only known cause is genetics.

Exactly!!😆 That's exactly the kind of information that he would soak up, no need to ever be reminded of again.
And I never even thought to doubt him, because I knew that once told he'd consistently remember.

As he grew though, and it took me ages to realise this, I had to remember to be very careful to watch what I said, because a seemingly small, insignificant comment, said in the spur of the moment, could be taken as a "rule", and I'd realise years later that he'd not been doing things because I'd once mentioned in passing to be careful.

My dc were the same as yours if not earlier learning to walk but are NT. There is a reason that diagnosis happens later and that's because babies reach their milestones at different times.

My son was diagnosed at 2 I wouldn't say he perfectly fit into either of your descriptions.

He was very content but not a good sleeper. He loved to be with me and his dad but no others. Very smiley and cuddly. He wouldn't copy or mimic. Loved food, this declined from the age of 2 and he is now very restrictive. Always attracted to films and animals on TV. Sensitive to light and sound but sensory seeking with touch. Always laughing.

What behaviours do you notice appearing around the 15 month mark?

My son was bloody fantastic as a baby. Compared to first son, the whirlwind, he was so calm and happy. The occasional rocking could have been a giveaway. But autism wasn't mentioned until he was 8.
He only started his terrible twos at three and I'm pretty sure it was brothers influence.

I recognise a lot of what you've put there in all three of my children, and in myself, as my mum always says I was a very chilled baby.

None of us are autistic. Honestly I think babies are all different and musings like this do nothing accept give parents neuroses.