Colour Blind casting

"There will have been any number of fairy-tales written by non-white authors that are just as good as Andersen’s ones - but they don’t get published or distributed and so can’t get to become classics*

I don't know, perhaps they are "classics" in their own cultures,,/ countries. We shouldn't assume that the whole world that call our classics classics.

You’re the one declaring saffron an ‘ethnic spice’ and ‘get your own recipes’ implying it does not meet your ‘British purity test’ despite a 700 year history of being grown here. Why have you co-opted a Robin?

Snow White is was not written by Anderson; it is a folk fairy tale and though it was published by the brothers Grimm it predates them. We rarely hear their ending where the wicked stepmother was made to wear red hot iron shoes and forced to dance until she died. Disney chose not to include it for some reason.

I do however agree that more fairy story’s and folk tales from around the world should be written and made into film. Why does Disney not have an African ‘princess’? Why present the little mermaid as black or use a black actor for Snow White instead of new films based on African folk tales? Though I imagine these days they would likely be accused of cultural appropriation if they tried.

I love that people are worried about what colour mermaids are and what accent is right for a rabbit. I honestly don't know the answer as I've never met a mermaid or heard a rabbit talking.

You’re the one keen on historical purity, not me.

Who said anything about British Culture?

Unless you can only stomach something that’s part of British Culture and so have co-opted saffron?

But well done on ignoring everything else in my post to concentrate on defending your incongruous position.

👏

I think the main issue is that we are still watching plays that were written hundreds of years ago, when everything was based around white men. If theatres commissioned more modern shows then the characters would reflect modern britain, with far more genders/ethnicities etc being included. For as long as we stick with the historic stuff then we need to accept that anyone can play any of the characters, otherwise people from ethnic minorities are being unfairly cut out from acting opportunities.

And Jimmy Perez, with Spanish heritage, described as being small and dark in the Shetland book, was played by a blond haired blue eyed actor.

I had no idea about colour blind casting until I tried to watch Hamilton and I just found it really confusing. I was genuinely trying to understand the story, but was thinking 'were these people really black' which is a fucking big deal in US history, but of course the people being portrayed were all white.

There is a difference between colour blind casting for fictional characters where the race and often sex, or sexuality of the head teacher, prime minister, judge etc is inconsequential, but historical figures should be played by actors of the same race as the person being portrayed.

I also find your username puzzling. Maybe white people shouldn’t be allowed to use ethnic spices. Get your own recipes.

So if growing it in the UK for 700 years is not long enough for something to be considered part ‘British culture’ how long do you think we should wait before something should be considered British? Does that just apply to spices, dyes, foodstuffs, or to people too?

Wellll technically and according to the Celtic folklorist Afred Nutt in the 19th century, and many, many after him, Snow White symbolises wintertime. Her return from her exile (with the dwarves) symbolises the return of spring with the prince symbolising the sun.

In the classic folklore taxonomy it's Aarne-Thompson 709 (virgin princess - exiled in underworld symbolising winter - returns with sexual awakening symbolising spring) alongside similar tales like Myrsina (Greece), Bella Venezia (Italian), Noruie Hadig (Slovakian) and Persephone (ancient Greece).

So in that sense her white skin (snow) and red lips (life, passion, sexual awakening) are important HOWEVER I appreciate that modern audiences are no longer in touch with their folkloric heritage and so you're right - it doesn't matter!

It is actually pretty common still in recent times, but people mostly don't notice.

Recently we had Scarlett Johansson in Ghost in the Shell (2017), Kristen Dunst in The Beguiled (2017), Natalie Portman and Jennifer Jason Leigh in Annihilation (2018); Catherine Zeta Jones in Cocaine Godmother (2018); Taron Egerton in Tetris (2023). Did you notice any of these?

This is for fictional and real-life/historical characters too. There is a whole Wikipedia page about it if you care to look, and many easy-to-digest online articles too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewashing_in_film

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jessg/whitewashed-hollywood-characters

Well, the historical Anne Boleyn was treated as "other" by many in the Tudor Court. Because she wasn't of one of the "old" noble families; because she was brought up in the French Court; because she was a gospeller; because she was outspoken; because she was an 'old' bride; because she was the "other women".

She was subject to death threats and plots to undermine her from day one.

So I actually felt that the casting aof a Blakc actress was quite a clever and considered move, given all of that.

Genuinely doesn't bother me. I think I'd only find it weird if the ethnicity of the character was pivotal to the plot eg To Kill a Mockingbird.

For historical stuff, who cares.

Sometimes I actually think it's a mistake to cast people because they bear a physical resemblance to the character in question. For example, the childactors in the Harry Potter films were apparently cast primarily because they were so physically close to the descrptions of the characters' appearances in the books. But all three are dreadful and wooden. Whereas the child actors who play some of the minor parts, are technically much more proficient and I wish they'd been cast instead.

No that’s not what I’m saying and it’s not what I’ve said. Honestly stop trying to pick a fight by putting words into my mouth. I said what I said you can go back and read it but I’m not wasting any more time on you. Bore off.

Had this discussion with students in a critical thinking module a few months ago. The general consensus was that if the actor is portraying an actual historical figure, rather than fictional then colourblind casting is absurd so for example, casting a black actor as Henry VIII would be preposterous. If it’s a fictional story I.e Dickens or Shakespearean adaptation then it doesn’t really matter because it’s all made up anyway.

This is in response to @ColonelDax, as evidence actually goes against your argument.

POC are not over-represented in the best roles: The most high paid and high profile roles. We know this by looking at acting awards. There are more and more POC in minor roles and tv adverts, which is good. But POC are not over-represented in the best parts.

Let's expand the Best Actress example: Few woman POC have been cast in a role that has Best Actress potential. Not due to lack of skill or talent, but lack of opportunity. If POC were truely over-represent in acting, then many POC would be nominated and winning Best Actress every year. This year was a historical first: the first Native American Oscar nominee. 0 Black women have won BAFTA Best Actress category in 76 years.

This is similar to wanting more women in CEO positions. We don't say "there are enough women in the workplace". Similarly, there needs to be more opportunities for POC at the highest levels of acting. This also means creating opportunities at lower-level roles for POC to build their profile and experience to move up the ranks into leading roles. One way to do this is for a screenwriter and producer to write a part (as artists) and say: "anyone, from any racial or ethnic background, can audition for this part". It is their art and their creation, they should have the choice.

But I've said this to you before...

Love what you did there 😂

But the reason they became feted classics around the world is because the structural power at the time was with white people.

There will have been any number of fairy-tales written by non-white authors that are just as good as Andersen’s ones - but they don’t get published or distributed and so can’t get to become classics.

Same reason there are more male Nobel prize winners or artists - women aren’t lesser, they just weren’t allowed to engage in the activities leading to excellence.

See also, all the female authors forced to write under male / gender indeterminate pseudonyms.

Even in populations that did have ethnic diversity, standards of beauty conformed to white Eurocentric ideals because of power imbalance and racism. Look at the prevalence of skin bleaching products in some parts of the world.

You’re extremely naive to think otherwise.

I also find your username puzzling. Maybe white people shouldn’t be allowed to use ethnic spices. Get your own recipes.

I've seen a few black versions of Cinderella (brandy was in it) and it was fine. I am sure there must be a Bollywood version of it and a Chinese version.

It's good to have that plus of course proper new princesses to represent others (Tiana or the new Chinese lady)

Recent damsel movie (set in dragon times) had Angela Bassett as the kings wife (step mum to Millie bobbie browns heroine) and that was good. Using the step mother trope but bringing in more diversity.

Just keep families consistent with the parents race or explain there is a blending (like the new eastenders family). (Yes I modern stories adoption is possible but that doesn't make sense for historic stuff)

For that reason, standards of beauty were white-centric, and people in positions of power were predominantly white.

No, the reason for this is because they were written in Germany and Denmark where over 99% of the population was white.

Where is your evidence for this?

You are not alone in thinking this - a YouGov poll suggests just over half the population believes marginalised groups are overrepresented on tv - but there are no reliable figures on the actual representation.

Have you found some? Or is it just ‘a feeling’, in which case perhaps there needs to be some reflection on why you feel this way.

But at the time the Little Mermaid and Snow White were written, the world was ruled by white people whose interaction with global majority races was one of oppression.

For that reason, standards of beauty were white-centric, and people in positions of power were predominantly white.

So it’s no surprise the Little Mermais / Snow White were written as white characters.

If we continue to make these films, we have 2 choices - stay faithful to the original text and continue to teach the next generation of people that the most beautiful creatures are white, or be better at representing beauty as it really is - inherent in every race.

I didn’t hear any complaints about a mixed race Pacific Islander / Native American / white actor playing Triton - just the fact Ariel was black. That’s not people being concerned about the source text, it’s people being racist.

Now the dearth of good parts for global majority actors is a good point - but as someone earlier pointed out, it’s a business. That’s why Hollywood and the various TV stations churn out endless remakes, superhero and games films. Again, the problem is that the source materials are white-centric more often than not, so the choice again becomes reinforcing standards of beauty, wisdom and heroism that reflect the time they were first introduced, or move with the times and become more racially mixed and inclusive.

It’s probably true that your reaction to colourblind casting depends on where you live. A PP mentioned a police show set in Scotland with ‘too many’ black senior coppers jarred because she knew there are hardly any black cops in Scotland. Living in London, I wouldn’t notice this at all - it wouldn’t occur to me.

We’re at a strange time when things are changing for the better, with more politicians and senior positions going to global majority people, and to women, and more of the most ‘beautiful’ women being WOC (Kardashians, Hadids, Beyonce etc).

But it’s going to take a while for that to be reflected in the big ticket culture - video games / comics (especially as these are notoriously white male focussed ‘behind the screen’). Likewise the people with power in the entertainment industries are still mostly white and male.

Things are changing, with more women with big influence emerging (Margot Robbie, Reece Witherspoon both favour female led stories in their productions) and of course the powerhouse that is Shonda Rhimes, but it takes time, so until we have better source material for GM actors, colourblind casting is a great way to have more representation on screen and continue to push the change in beauty and power standards.

It’s the age old question about culture & entertainment reflecting society as it is, versus being a force for positive change.

I prefer the latter.

Plus Ariel is a mermaid. The fact she’s got black skin isn’t the weird thing.

You are not even making sense? White actors live in the UK and existed in history? Well yes.

"Used to" is a key phrase. We recognise now that it was wrong. Nowadays a black character would be played by a black actor.

I think I'm less irked about it in theatre than I am with film or tv series that claim to be aiming for "realism" (as impossible as objective realism really is).
Theatre is excused basically because of the history of theatre - men famously playing women for centuries due to law/tradition meant the audience was both expected and expecting to suspend their disbelief from the word go. Gender, race, cultural references and even contemporary language can either be swapped out due to convenience/merit OR storytelling/boundary-pushing/social commentary and it's pretty much instantly accepted and forgiven.

Film/tv on the other hand catches me up and I can't even say why.
A very quick guess: in film, you are expecting/expected to have less suspension of disbelief from the visible or concrete aspects of the show (the actual actors, say) and it more comes from the storytelling (eg there's "magic" in a fantasy, etc).

are 'they' - well suck it up - it doesn't really hurt you does it - 'they' are actors playing a role and existed in history btw I mean 'they' even live in the UK now - how shocking

Or she had a prodigious cocaine habit and imagined all the tiny people and talking animals.

Not sure her skin colour is the least realistic thing about the movie, tbh.