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To ask about ND masking in girls - school say she seems 'fine'

138 replies

seriouslynonames · 08/03/2024 19:31

My DD8 is in year 3. Waiting for private assessment for ADHD (GP suggested quicker than NHS esp as infant school at the time saw no issues).

She is extremely anxious all the time, about lots of things, and it shows up in her body in the form of unsettled tum and nausea. She has short periods most days of seeming more relaxed and happy, but spends much of each day on edge, nervous, worried or angry.

She says she hates school, doesn't want to go. Being there makes her angry, makes her want to scream. She feels nauseous or funny tum most mornings (also for weekend out of school activities) and goes to bed feeling similar most nights. Says school is too loud, too many strict rules, being told what to do all day, can't concentrate, friendship issues make he'd upset or angry. She feels the need to move all the time. She only enjoys extra curricular activities before/after school, plus art. She isn't struggling academically so far. She also worries about feeling or being ill at school or others being sick in front of her at school. That's a big issue at the moment.

When I talk to school they say she is doing well, gets work done to a good standard, isn't disruptive, follows directions, keeps her desk neat, puts her hand up, takes turns, is polite and helpful, gets on fine with peers and adults etc. they can see the fidgeting but that's it. They have given her ear defenders and a wobble cushion after I mentioned a couple of things back in the autumn, but would not have offered if I hadn't raised it.

At home we see such a different side to what school see. Extreme anger, aggression, destruction. Very low self-esteem and very worrying negative self talk. Constant anxiety and physical symptoms/feeling ill with it. Always moving, can't sit still.

She didn't make it to school Monday to Weds this week. Said she felt sick and tummy felt jumbled up. Said it was worse than the usual nervous feeling she gets so I took it at face value and kept her off. Tried to go in Tues but ended up coming home before school started as felt sick and looked green. Then Weds she seemed better so got ready to go in then it was too much, she just couldn't leave the house she was too nervous about still feeling ill and absolutely would/could not go, hates school, doesn't ever want to go.

Spoke to school today (she went in today/yesterday after a struggle) who want to address the school avoidance but repeated that when in school she seems 'totally fine'. And to be fair to school, when she comes out at the end of the day she is generally ok. It's only later in the evening when it all goes to s*.

I just want some views on whether it's possible for a child to mask so fully that despite me having been pretty open with the school about what we see and what DD says to us, that school just don't see anything? Surely DD couldn't make up all this stuff she tells us about how school makes her feel? We know the anxiety is very real and the anger. And I believe what she says about how school makes her feel. But then I start to doubt myself when school say how completely fine she is!

Would welcome others' experiences of masking please x

OP posts:
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8
purpleme12 · 11/03/2024 20:36

eduwot · 11/03/2024 20:36

I just wanted to add that my experience of Early 'help' was shockingly bad. It felt to me as if the main reason for their intervention is to suss out whether YOU are part of the problem. Your family is basically investigated and then they decide what 'help' you might benefit from. It was decided that my child wasn't violent enough, wasn't suicidal and we were OK parents, so they did naff all. What the worker did do was baked some cookies with my child, and bizarrely, actually commented that the she could be prosecuted for school non - attendance! I have heard of it happening to parents, but telling an anxiously child that kind of misinformation is pretty unforgivable. Plus, she had fuck all understanding of neurodiversity or anxiety.

This is what puts me off see

eduwot · 11/03/2024 20:36

I just wanted to add that my experience of Early 'help' was shockingly bad. It felt to me as if the main reason for their intervention is to suss out whether YOU are part of the problem. Your family is basically investigated and then they decide what 'help' you might benefit from. It was decided that my child wasn't violent enough, wasn't suicidal and we were OK parents, so they did naff all. What the worker did do was baked some cookies with my child, and bizarrely, actually commented that the she could be prosecuted for school non - attendance! I have heard of it happening to parents, but telling an anxiously child that kind of misinformation is pretty unforgivable. Plus, she had fuck all understanding of neurodiversity or anxiety.

Springingintolife · 11/03/2024 20:33

following

Ialwaystry · 11/03/2024 20:13

purpleme12 · 11/03/2024 20:07

Whatever I try doesn't work ☹️
Unless I do whatever she wants obviously but that isn't possible in life all the time

Please read, research and join supportgroups. It will become clear when you research more.
There's plenty of families, children and mums out there like us

purpleme12 · 11/03/2024 20:07

Ialwaystry · 11/03/2024 20:01

Children esp neuro diverse can't always explain what they want and changing there emind is fine too. Just collaborate again,.
You took the choice away from her. She wanted to please you and then changed her mind.
Honestly I've done all the stuff society and schools want you to do, it doesn't work for all kids. You're child needs you to now parent her differently. Being violent and aggressive is telling you its not working for her. She doesn't want to disobey you and be violent.
She can't, not won't!
What you think is bad behaviour is telling you everything is not OK for her.

Whatever I try doesn't work ☹️
Unless I do whatever she wants obviously but that isn't possible in life all the time

Ialwaystry · 11/03/2024 20:01

purpleme12 · 11/03/2024 19:55

I gave my child a choice yesterday.
She made her choice.
Then after changed her mind. I stuck to the rule, said she'd made her choice so can't do the original option and she still kicked off and did the aggression ☹️

Children esp neuro diverse can't always explain what they want and changing there emind is fine too. Just collaborate again,.
You took the choice away from her. She wanted to please you and then changed her mind.
Honestly I've done all the stuff society and schools want you to do, it doesn't work for all kids. You're child needs you to now parent her differently. Being violent and aggressive is telling you its not working for her. She doesn't want to disobey you and be violent.
She can't, not won't!
What you think is bad behaviour is telling you everything is not OK for her.

purpleme12 · 11/03/2024 19:55

Ialwaystry · 11/03/2024 19:22

Giving them autonomy
It's what works for you, but everything is a demand to a child with burnout and pad.
Read the book the explosive child and Declarative language. It's all about working collaboratively rather than demand.
For ex, brush your teeth now, give them choices, would you like ti brush your teeth before or after breakfast? It means they are in control.
Also look at this site.
https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/
There are also loads of Facebook groups, I.e not fine in school, and loads more for neurodivers children. There's a wealth of knowlesge out there.

I gave my child a choice yesterday.
She made her choice.
Then after changed her mind. I stuck to the rule, said she'd made her choice so can't do the original option and she still kicked off and did the aggression ☹️

eduwot · 11/03/2024 19:48

Yeah, I don't think a lot of school staff really get masking. Your daughter is basically holding it together all day and then it all comes out. The coke bottle effect.

My daughter was just like yours. Unfortunately, everything did come crashing down in the end and she took a long time to recover from autistic burn out. If she is finding school that hard, try and get to the bottom of what would make the environment OK for her to learn and be comfortable in. Some children aren't going to ever be OK in a mainstream school. For my daughter, it took home education for her to be able to recover and learn. She is a different child now and doing brilliantly.
Not everyone can home ed obviously, but that's what's working for us. I have enlisted lots of outside help that suits out not very large budget!
There are many ways to learn that don't involve mainstream school. There are some amazing specialist schools around too,
Don't let school bully you into anything. I spent so long forcing my child in; she spent everyday trying to avoid going in. The result was no learning at all. Don't leave things til they get totally out of hand, like we did. We wasted 2 years plus. Good luck to you both.

Kissmystarfish · 11/03/2024 19:32

I could have written this about my daughter!!!

she got diagnosed with adhd. We home educate her and it’s worked for us. However I realise this wouldn’t work for everyone else.

KateLizAn · 11/03/2024 19:30

OP, your post and the replies have brought me to tears. Your post could have been about my 10 year old son. School are just completely refuting it and make me feel really stupid and laughed at parents evening when I asked if he possibly had ASD.

On the back of this thread I am going to take him to the GP. Thank you.

Ialwaystry · 11/03/2024 19:22

purpleme12 · 11/03/2024 19:09

I would be really interested to know some examples of low demand parenting
And what would you say to a child when it's something non negotiable?
I really struggle knowing when people talk about this

Giving them autonomy
It's what works for you, but everything is a demand to a child with burnout and pad.
Read the book the explosive child and Declarative language. It's all about working collaboratively rather than demand.
For ex, brush your teeth now, give them choices, would you like ti brush your teeth before or after breakfast? It means they are in control.
Also look at this site.
https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/
There are also loads of Facebook groups, I.e not fine in school, and loads more for neurodivers children. There's a wealth of knowlesge out there.

HOME

Welcome to PDA Society Information, training and support for PDA people, parents & carers, and professionals. The PDA Society is the only specialist PDA charity in the UK. We are a small team, and all of us have a personal connection with PDA. Ou...

https://www.pdasociety.org.uk

purpleme12 · 11/03/2024 19:09

Ialwaystry · 11/03/2024 11:34

Tell them what you think she needs.
I.e regular breaks, reduced timetable. Someone she trusts to talk to. Mine used to take in fidget toys. she had to be told at the beginning of every day what was happening, She couldn't cope when a certain friend or teacher was off.
Don't drag ur child to school or allow them to forcefully remover her from you.
Just listen to your child and keep her off if necessary ( it's not worth it in the long run because she will lose trust in you).
My child became violent amd aggressive to me and now I low demand parent her.
Read as much as you can and the explosive child book/also on audio and pda.
She sounds like she is nearing burn out, which is where my child is now.

I would be really interested to know some examples of low demand parenting
And what would you say to a child when it's something non negotiable?
I really struggle knowing when people talk about this

Ialwaystry · 11/03/2024 11:37

seriouslynonames · 08/03/2024 19:31

My DD8 is in year 3. Waiting for private assessment for ADHD (GP suggested quicker than NHS esp as infant school at the time saw no issues).

She is extremely anxious all the time, about lots of things, and it shows up in her body in the form of unsettled tum and nausea. She has short periods most days of seeming more relaxed and happy, but spends much of each day on edge, nervous, worried or angry.

She says she hates school, doesn't want to go. Being there makes her angry, makes her want to scream. She feels nauseous or funny tum most mornings (also for weekend out of school activities) and goes to bed feeling similar most nights. Says school is too loud, too many strict rules, being told what to do all day, can't concentrate, friendship issues make he'd upset or angry. She feels the need to move all the time. She only enjoys extra curricular activities before/after school, plus art. She isn't struggling academically so far. She also worries about feeling or being ill at school or others being sick in front of her at school. That's a big issue at the moment.

When I talk to school they say she is doing well, gets work done to a good standard, isn't disruptive, follows directions, keeps her desk neat, puts her hand up, takes turns, is polite and helpful, gets on fine with peers and adults etc. they can see the fidgeting but that's it. They have given her ear defenders and a wobble cushion after I mentioned a couple of things back in the autumn, but would not have offered if I hadn't raised it.

At home we see such a different side to what school see. Extreme anger, aggression, destruction. Very low self-esteem and very worrying negative self talk. Constant anxiety and physical symptoms/feeling ill with it. Always moving, can't sit still.

She didn't make it to school Monday to Weds this week. Said she felt sick and tummy felt jumbled up. Said it was worse than the usual nervous feeling she gets so I took it at face value and kept her off. Tried to go in Tues but ended up coming home before school started as felt sick and looked green. Then Weds she seemed better so got ready to go in then it was too much, she just couldn't leave the house she was too nervous about still feeling ill and absolutely would/could not go, hates school, doesn't ever want to go.

Spoke to school today (she went in today/yesterday after a struggle) who want to address the school avoidance but repeated that when in school she seems 'totally fine'. And to be fair to school, when she comes out at the end of the day she is generally ok. It's only later in the evening when it all goes to s*.

I just want some views on whether it's possible for a child to mask so fully that despite me having been pretty open with the school about what we see and what DD says to us, that school just don't see anything? Surely DD couldn't make up all this stuff she tells us about how school makes her feel? We know the anxiety is very real and the anger. And I believe what she says about how school makes her feel. But then I start to doubt myself when school say how completely fine she is!

Would welcome others' experiences of masking please x

Remember kids want to learn, they want to behave and do as they are told, they just 'cant' when you are seeing these behaviours.

Ialwaystry · 11/03/2024 11:34

seriouslynonames · 11/03/2024 09:19

Thanks @Ialwaystry
That sounds hard, I hope you make progress. I am waiting for an appointment with the SENCO and ELSA lead in school but need to get myself organised in terms of what I want from them before I go in. Will ask about SEN plan /needs assessment

Tell them what you think she needs.
I.e regular breaks, reduced timetable. Someone she trusts to talk to. Mine used to take in fidget toys. she had to be told at the beginning of every day what was happening, She couldn't cope when a certain friend or teacher was off.
Don't drag ur child to school or allow them to forcefully remover her from you.
Just listen to your child and keep her off if necessary ( it's not worth it in the long run because she will lose trust in you).
My child became violent amd aggressive to me and now I low demand parent her.
Read as much as you can and the explosive child book/also on audio and pda.
She sounds like she is nearing burn out, which is where my child is now.

seriouslynonames · 11/03/2024 09:19

Ialwaystry · 11/03/2024 09:11

My now 12 yr old had asd and adhd and this definitely was her in primary. She doesn't have to have a diagnosis for them to give her a sen care plan.
Mine hasn't been in school since Sept now as secondary school was brutal for her.
Schools will always tell you she's OK because neurodivers kids mask. I used to think she was high functioning but I was so wrong.
I wished I'd taken my child out earlier. She's still on roll and I'm fighting for her to have an EHCP (At mediation stage).
She never wanted to go to school since year 6 and always had friendship issues. No-one in primary believed she was neurodiverse. The teachers just don't get trained enough in it and secondary is a lot worse.

Thanks @Ialwaystry
That sounds hard, I hope you make progress. I am waiting for an appointment with the SENCO and ELSA lead in school but need to get myself organised in terms of what I want from them before I go in. Will ask about SEN plan /needs assessment

OP posts:
seriouslynonames · 11/03/2024 09:17

@Rainallnight I should have added to check out low demand parenting, it has helped with the letting go of expectations and reducing defiance

OP posts:
Ialwaystry · 11/03/2024 09:11

My now 12 yr old had asd and adhd and this definitely was her in primary. She doesn't have to have a diagnosis for them to give her a sen care plan.
Mine hasn't been in school since Sept now as secondary school was brutal for her.
Schools will always tell you she's OK because neurodivers kids mask. I used to think she was high functioning but I was so wrong.
I wished I'd taken my child out earlier. She's still on roll and I'm fighting for her to have an EHCP (At mediation stage).
She never wanted to go to school since year 6 and always had friendship issues. No-one in primary believed she was neurodiverse. The teachers just don't get trained enough in it and secondary is a lot worse.

seriouslynonames · 11/03/2024 09:00

@Rainallnight my DD is like this too. Agree with @Phineyj it seems to be anxiety related. If she is anxious it often comes out as defiance or anger and we get absolute refusal. In terms of handling it, some things I have just let go - she sits down for dinner when she's ready not when I ask. I played her up some food so she doesn't miss out and she usually joins us after a few minutes. Cutlery is always there but often not used. Usually fine unless it's spaghetti or something equally messy when I might try a bit harder to encourage its use. other things like going to loo before leaving, I get everyone else to go or ask who is going first, you or me etc. sometimes works, sometimes not. I remind her the loo at home is nicer than the one at wherever we are going but if she still refuses I just drop it. Other things it's a case of very gentle nudging baby steps forward. Will also take a look myself at the book @Phineyj suggested!

OP posts:
Phineyj · 11/03/2024 06:55

@Rainallnight I found the book 10 Days to a Less Defiant Child v helpful in figuring out what to do. Behaviour like this often seems from anxiety.

littleteapot86 · 10/03/2024 23:21

Wow your DD sounds so similar to my DS who is 7. I'm sitting in bed, he's finally asleep and just pondering the absolute shit show that was today 😅 I mean I could either laugh or cry it was that bad. We are currently considering a private assessment as I'm totally disillusioned with the NHS waiting times (I work as a clinical psychologist with the NHS although not with children). I think the psychologist was a bit quick to exclude ASD in my opinion (but ASD not my area of expertise at all so not sure). I hope things get better for you. We aren't sure whether our DS fits more ASD or ADHD but something just doesn't feel entirely "normal" and family life is very disrupted.

Rainallnight · 10/03/2024 23:11

If OP doesn’t mind, can I ask if anyone here has issues with major defiance in your girls and how you handle it?

I’m at my absolute wits end with DD today. Things she refused to do included going to the loo before we set off on a long journey, sitting down for dinner, using cutlery to eat when finally sitting down, lending her brother her spacer for his inhaler (he was really poorly and really needed it)

I ended up today being really shouty and feeling like I wasn’t handling it well at all. But everything is such a battle.

Can anyone relate? She’s 7.5

DimLlaeth · 10/03/2024 09:39

@WhatsitWiggle she's still in school, second year of 6th form. She's worse, as there is less structure. More free time, and she really struggles. She is pushing back against the rules that are in place.

She does the work, but her attendance is very poor. And she's on a risk assessment too, due to a second overdose (not in school).

She was in the wellbeing hub for all free periods, and had her pass removed so she couldn't leave school. That's been changed to an hour a day in the wellbeing hub, and she has her pass back.

kikilaw · 09/03/2024 18:23

My dd had different symptoms but at 8 i knew she had adhd. School v unsuportive. Finally diagnosed properly at 14.5.

pommepom · 09/03/2024 18:22

EveSix · 08/03/2024 20:10

Take a look at DefineFine, NotFineInSchool, MissingTheMark and Dr Naomi Fisher on Facebook.
They're incredibly informative and supportive spaces for children facing significant difficulties in education.
Wishing you and your DD well.

This

TheLurpackYears · 09/03/2024 15:44

This is the age my dd stopped being able to hide that she was fine in school. I wish I knew then what I know now. I'm waiting for a diagnosis of autism and adhd. I'm ambivalent about it being official but it seems to be the only way of navigating the education system for her.
The Not Fine In School fb page is fab.