To think this country's future looks bleak due to the attitude towards having children

No problem with child-free people posting. It just wouldn't have occurred to me to spend my time posting on a parents website before I had children in my mid thirties 🙃 I was always happy to help out my friends and colleagues with children and realise how much free time I used to have 😊 I'm pretty sure a lot of these posters are angry trolls.

You do realise the majority of topics in MN Talk have nothing to do with having kids, right? And a lot of us have landed here because threads have come up in search engine results and we found the information really helpful?

Having a difference in opinion and view on life and procreation does not make us angry trolls.

That is really interesting @AsTheyPulledYouOutOfTheOxygenTent. I had no idea the rate was so low in some countries.

I realise that including actual data is against the spirit of this thread, but these are the fertility rates in lovely child-friendly Mediterranean countries where their well-behaved offspring are welcome and doted over in all their charming little restaurants.

Yep, they're pretty much the same or lower than the UK (not on the map because Brexit, but currently about 1.49). The big outlier is France, which gives its citizens huge bribes to have kids, but still can't get the fertility up above replacement rate.

It's not about tutting in cafes, it's about cash, and childcare. No idea what's going on in Spain tbh, I think youth unemployment and general economic factors might be relevant?

Then I'm confused as to your point although that's why I clarified as I thought i might be misunderstanding

No

I have adult children, we brought them up without the benefit of childcare subsidies and the minimum wage was very low compared to today with our wages much lower too of course and roughly it was proportional to today house prices to income where we lived. We had to live frugally, that's one old car, no pay tv, no gym, no meals out or trips to coffee shops, only 1 payg phone (they costed more then), no holidays abroad. Things get easier later on as you get promoted, no childcare... it's always harder at first and I get annoyed that people are complaining about needing more help but live lifestyles we could only dream of - remember the help is my taxes, I paid for my kids, don't see why I need to pay for others

So to be clear you think childfree posters are angry trolls?

No problem with child-free people posting. It just wouldn't have occurred to me to spend my time posting on a parents website before I had children in my mid thirties 🙃 I was always happy to help out my friends and colleagues with children and realise how much free time I used to have 😊 I'm pretty sure a lot of these posters are angry trolls.

Are you new to this forum?

Take it up with MNHQ who have been very clear repeatedly that childfree posters are welcome here

I'm slightly baffled at the number of proudly child-free, strongly opinionated people on a parenting website 🤔

Many parent posters have been using the term 'lifestyle choice', critically considering the village aspect and disagreeing with the OP too you know :).

And only child free people are of the opinion that people with kids look down on them or are desperate for them to help raise their DC, the truth is I’m sure that most of us don’t actually give a fuck whether you have kids or not.

You missed this goady thread started by someone with kids then? Sure the majority disagreed with her, but there was a significant minority who agreed.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5022080-to-wonder-if-dinks-will-be-more-lonely-when-older?page=1

So those struggling with infertility should not have kids? So ignorant.

People are so thick they can’t see why a falling birth rate is a problem for the country OP, you can see it first hand on this thread. They are so caught up in their own offence at being child free and the apparent burden that it brings them that they can’t see past their own self importance. Then you mention immigrants and they are all over you for it despite it being very clear what your point was but hey let’s all get offended and ignore the actual problem facing the future of the country.

When they are old and the pension dries up because there are not enough new tax payers they will moan about that, or if there is no one to empty their bins, wipe their old arses, deliver their food, provide their medical care, administer their bank accounts, run the electricity and water networks, drive the buses etc. etc. then maybe they will open their eyes as to why people having children is important.

And only child free people are of the opinion that people with kids look down on them or are desperate for them to help raise their DC, the truth is I’m sure that most of us don’t actually give a fuck whether you have kids or not.

Over the years on MN I have seen multiple posts from people suspicious of anyone without children who is willing to babysit etc

One particularly mad post suggested that childless aunts or uncles who have toys in their house for their nieces or nephews were absolutely grooming them

As a childless woman I have seen women like me compared to Myra Hindly and Rose West multiple times on here

Maybe childless/free women would be more interested in being part of your "village" if you hadn't forced us out of it in the first place

Because if you want childfree women to stop "acting with hostility" towards you maybe starting a thread about them to slag them off and call them selfish possibly wasn't the best way to do it?

Mean while I shall continue to care for my nephew and provide frequent childcare for my disabled neighbour like the selfish person I am...

There's an enormous difference between allowing people to better their lot by moving, and deliberately depriving other countries by essentially outbidding them. Then when these workers come here, we pay them poorly, overwork them and the home office treats with them with great hostility. It's exploitation, and wouldn't be at all necessary if we gave our own citizens proper pay and conditions.
Let's also remember the environment in which we can "outbid" a poorer country is essentially of our own creation.
My DH is from a country where 70% (out of ~5000) of newly qualified nurses leave the country. Multiply that by all sorts of industries. There's an enormous social cost to that.
Migrants are the only ones who will tolerate the conditions here, and frankly that is messed up.

People aren't "resources" (as much as your HR department might like to think they are). They are humans with agency. They aren't beholden to a country and this whole idea of people from developing countries shouldn't be allowed to better their lot by moving somewhere with better prospects is bullshit. Do you think that moving to somewhere with better job prospects should only be the preserve of rich Westerners? Do you think an educated person from say, Stoke, should not be permitted to move to London? Because Stoke needs them?

Sure, countries can (and should) impose caps on immigration, but using the excuse of "it's for their own good" is absolute crap.

It's a vicious cycle though, you describe people 'choosing' to not have children but the reality is that when people are struggling, they are less likely to have children. So fewer people are born and the economy suffers even more and then so on. People might think it is a 'choice' but the reality is that if more people were comfortable they'd more likely be having children/ having more children.

Contraception can fail.