To think this country's future looks bleak due to the attitude towards having children

@MariaVT65 Im child free by choice because i didnt want a life of drudgery.

Just a quick reminder that childless is usually used to refer to infertile people

Now I don't agree with the idea that childfreeby choice people who have paid in via taxes shouldn't recieve anything from the state in their old age to be clear

But I think standing there and declaring that infertile people who actively wanted children but couldn't have them, maybe had miscarriages and still births etc shouldn't be entitled to anything from the state in their old age because they don't have children is a pretty fundamentally nasty point to make

Having “a village” isn’t about other people selflessly forming one around you. A lot of parents seem to misinterpret it as such. A village is what you work to build yourself - by finding other parents to do childcare / babysitting swaps with, by looking around you and exchanging favours other people need for the ones you need, by reaching out and offering to help others in a similar position as you because that’s how to forge bonds. When people on MN post about being sad they have no “village”, they never seem to have considered laying the foundations of that village themselves

This sums it up for me.

If people don't take time to make friends, find low level drama with all their relatives, focus on me and my little family, never answer the door, don't talk to their neighbours, go to toddler groups and spend the whole time convinced everyone there isn't worth talking to, does the school run and invents conspiracies where the parents chatting to each other are actually cliquey bitches, and the other parents who are mindlessly staring into the middle distance are also evil snobs who don't like strangers for some ridiculous reason (like they don't like my hair colour or must ignore me because they don't like my clothes) and so on, it's hardly surprising that they don't have a village.

It takes a village is often used as a way to try to guilt trip (usually female) relatives into providing childcare on demand without doing much in return.

If you want to pay less council tax, I suggest a houseshare or lodger.

Quite happily have the tax money I pay to fund your children's health care, childcare, education, university grant, and so on and put it towards my pension instead and invested over 20 yrs + I'd end up with far more than I'd get from state pension anyway.

How about you pay your fair share of council tax you know that adult social care makes up the majoirty of spend for councils which when you get older you might need...but guess what did you pay your fair share of council tax ..nope but you will get the same benefit though. Meanwhile single childless person paid more council tax for the same adult care benefit. 🙄

None of which answers my question. We either have a social contract whereby each generation pays for the schooling and healthcare of the younger ones, and receives a state pension funded by those generations upon retirement, or we don't.

What you can't do is decree that childless people have to participate in the social contract when it comes to paying in, but receive no benefit from it at the end.

I pay more tax than my DCs health & education costs.

It's older people who cost the state not DCs.

A nursery place is £200pwk, a residential care home place is £2000 pwk.

Most A&E admissions are in the over 80s.

This is where AI can fill a gap.

I genuinely don't understand this attitude from older posters that because they didn't receive any help financially rearing children that means no one else should get any either.

Twenty years of Labour and it is rubbish here.

Fine, don't have DCs. But don't expect anything from the state in your old age.

In which case, you'll be OK if childless people stop paying the tax that funds your children's healthcare and education?

Thought not.

(Also, nobody has kids as a personal sacrifice to the state, they have them because they want them. And nobody is "denying the existence" of children - what does that even mean?!)

The children would be the ones to cover the cost of the services they use as adults. Many parents do indeed pay sufficient tax to cover the services they consume personally over their adult lives plus their children's education (or don't use state education).

Higher earners in the UK pay some of the highest marginal tax rates in the entire world once all deductions are factored in to make a genuine comparison between countries. It is the average earners in the UK that pay much less tax than in the countries that have decent public services elsewhere in Europe.

What a horrible anti mother misogynistic thread to be on Mumsnet of all places!

People shout down those who make the personal sacrifice to have children but then expect those very children they would deny the existence of to pay their pensions and nhs care in old age.

Most public expenditure is on the elderly. So the childless elderly are dependent on the tax paying children of the parents they scolded.

Fine, don't have DCs. But don't expect anything from the state in your old age.

I have moved local authorities while on maternity leave leave and it's shocking the difference of what's available for parents - a new mum should try to live in an area which has been labour for a while in my opinion as children's centres etc are much better funded x

I think Section 21 causes a lot pf problems when it comes to creating a village
One of my friends was evicted 3 times in 18 months, (no fault, landlords selling up or going bust) and thanks to the rental shortage, her children have moved schools with each house move. Ot must make it very hard to make connections and feel part of a community when you always know you could be moved on at any moment.
I know some sanctimonious cow will appear now and say it is her fault for having children while renting, but the real world isn't like that.

showmethegin · 08/03/2024 15:01
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The hostility from society is palpable when you have young children”

Really? Ours are adults now. I can’t recall ever feeling hostility from “society”. Most people were nice 🤷‍♀️

@arethereanyleftatall how are you paying for my child or anyone's child? We are higher earners so don't claim any child benefits, pay a lot in taxes and no free childcare. How are you paying for other people's children? Absolutely laughable.”

No, it isn’t. Your contributions will not cover the services you and your child/children use during their lifetimes.

Throwing money at the problem with bribes and subsidising childcare does work in France and Czechia. Their birth rates aren't at replacement rate but they're a hell of a lot higher than everywhere else.

You also have to sort out housing.

I've said this on a few threads before but I think what's needed is to understand whether women are just, in increasing numbers, not interested in having kids, and if so, what could possibly encourage them to change their mind.

Stopping educating us and/or removing our access to contraception works apparently.

Another way of saying that the more options women have the fewer children that will be born.

This is, of course, a good thing.

Birth rates are plummeting in every country outside sub-Saharan Africa.

In which case, can we be confident that throwing more cash at this is the answer? France gives parents massive amounts of money, and as stated upthread, Hungary essentially waives the requirement to pay tax if you have a big enough number of kids. And yet both have plummeting birth rates.

I've said this on a few threads before but I think what's needed is to understand whether women are just, in increasing numbers, not interested in having kids, and if so, what could possibly encourage them to change their mind. Just throwing money at parents and bleating on about future generations of taxpayers is burying our heads in the sand. We (UK and global 'we') need a realistic plan for what we do when inevitably we cannot keep the Ponzi scheme going with more babies.

I've not really noticed any particular hostility towards people with kids but that may be because I had mine a while ago and I only have one, so my experience is limited and could be a bit dated if that's possible in this area at all.

I have, however, recently been reading some news article about childcare and was quite shocked to find out how expensive it is! I didn't think it was that cheap when my son was younger but it seems to have more than doubled now while I am not really seeing the same trend in salaries but I guess the cost of living crisis has done its job over the last few years.

It's never really been easy to raise kids, which is why so many people often feel like it's never the right time to have them. However as life in general gets harder for people overall, people may become less and less tolerant in general, not just when it comes to other people's children. I am wondering if it is this that you are experiencing rather than any particular intolerance towards people with kids?

You do realise how pensions work right? They are not just big savings pots and will need future generations to administer etc. but you just keep telling yourself that you won’t need future generations, ignorance will help I’m sure.

God this site is misanthropic and weird

The Mumsnet village is in laws minding your children for free, and it's a one way street. No wonder so many opt out.