Do career women get more kudos than part-timers/sahms?

verotutkimus.fi/en/finnish-child-home-care-allowance-has-negative-impacts-on-mothers-careers-and-on-child-outcomes/

Interesting study - I think it was Finland who had the generous stay at home payment. However studies are revealing negative outcomes for mum and child. Anyone know more info about this?

What research?

I agree that some people don't know how to parent effectively. I fail to see how paying them to stay at home is going to help? Arguably, the children of such parents are likely to be much better off in professional childcare.

'The vast majority of adults are capable of domestic work and childcare'

I work in a field where the adults do not know how to parent. I think it is a sad reality that anyone can become a parent, but only some of them will do so with the appropriate skill set and care. Now obviously it's extremely complex with why this is, but if the government (and by extension society) valued caring more, we wouldn't have as much ill health and delinquency as we do now. I have seen the amount of vulnerable families dramatically increase. At the heart of this, is because of poor investment to support people.

To be clear, in terms of 'value' this would be government funded places for families to go (such as sure start which was later scrapped), appropriate childcare, better maternal care etc. Lots of predominantly women are forced back into work because of spiralling costs, how about providing a salary for women to stay at home. The research shows the positive impact of this, short and long term. I think there's a country that already does this?

Interesting to see this thread alongside one from a poster who used to be a lawyer and is 'humiliated' to answer that she's now a SAHP with a PT Etsy shop when people ask her if she works .

I've conflated nothing. I literally state that it isn't about working or not. My point was that raising a child properly requires lots of time, effort and isn't easy. Pretending otherwise does all parents a disservice and allows those who are dragging up their kids to feel like they are doing an adequate job.

I'm not sure whether the posters who are responding 'yes of course' are saying that women get more kudos if they have a career - or whether it's that looking after children that's an undervalued activity.

I certainly don't think any more of a person because of their job/career .

I was always proud of myself having created a brilliant work-life balance.

OK. So why do you think you undervalue yourself? Presumably you feel that you are contributing to your family in a meaningful way? And hopefully your partner/spouse agrees? You shouldn't need any validation from other people to believe that what you're doing is worthwhile, so ultimately, I think it comes down to the question of whether you are satisfied with how your life has panned out.

Who exactly is expecting you to fill that "default carer" role? Is it your partner/spouse? Do you actually want to be the "default carer"? If you're happy with it, then it's absolutely fine, but if you feel that you've unwillingly ended up in that role because of outdated sexist stereotypes, then maybe it's time to challenge those stereotypes.

Too many children are dragged up by adults that don't appreciate this...

Adults who do a shit job raising children aren't shit at it because they're working. They're just shit parents.

I'm not sure why you are conflating the 2 things.

You might have a point of you needed some qualification or vetting to become a parent but that's not true, is it. You simply appoint yourself to the role by dint of having produced a child.

People typically value the things that benefit them or at least have the potential to benefit them. Someone staying at home to do domestic work and childcare benefits only the partner of that person, so its a tough sell to get people to value it. Realistically I'm going to value my doctor, my children's teacher, the person who keeps the shelves stocked in my supermarket more highly than a person who's work has no impact on my life.
As for the particular praise for high flying women, well they often have specialist knowledge or skill sets that are relatively rare. The vast majority of adults are capable of domestic work and childcare, so obviously it doesn't carry the kudos of securing and holding down a Big Job. I'm not sure it's particularly sexist as there are jobs predominantly done by men that carry no kudos either if they are don't require any specialist skill or ability to do them.
I think SAHP should be valued and given kudos by the other adult they are facilitating, but I'm not sure the rest of society needs to offer it too.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

Good observations.

I undervalue myself. But I also think there is a default expectation that its women who will be the default carer.

Having done both the full time career and having au pair/nursery to now part time and nursery, in my case I had two very different experiences. Essentially, working full time means others are looking after your children. So felt a lot more refreshed when I was then with my kids. Being the default parent is very tiring because you don't get time out. I think my experience is extreme though as we have very little family support so I do get very lonely.

But undervalued by whom?

If your partner doesn't appreciate what you contribute to the family, then that's difficult, and perhaps it's time to renegotiate the division of labour within your household.

If your kids don't appreciate what you do, and they're old enough to be aware of it, then that's difficult, and perhaps it's time to rethink how you're raising them.

If you're expecting others to value what you do for your family, I think that's unrealistic. Nobody else cares how you manage your own childcare and domestic chores because it makes no difference to anyone other than your immediate family.

Part timer here and sahm, as for any type of caring role, is hugely undervalued. It is also unseen.

I note that the OP hasn't bothered coming back, other than to deny using the phrase in her thread title.

I don't hear them getting any praise for the hours they put into childcare and keeping house.

Because it's not the same and many "career women" do all this and also work?

I don't see why we have to equalise everything and therefore diminish working mothers by giving kudos to all groups?

You're not being unreasonable. However, as a 'career' woman there is also damning rhetoric around that – that you're not as dedicated to your children, that you cannot make every school event, that you sometimes aren't home to put them to bed, that they are 'stuck' in after school club and its our fault. I have never once been celebrated for my career while also managing a home and children – in fact new acquaintances don't even ever ask me what I do. They are sure to ask my husband what he does though!

So I very much feel that it goes both ways, and that you just can't do anything right as a woman.

Thankfully in my real life no one gives a shit. We are all just muddling through and are aware that there's positives and negatives for both. I work nights at the moment, decent pay, lots of stress. I judge noone else and their choices. I'd be embarrassed to think any other tbh.
All the people rising to @Queenconsult just ignore. If they truly believe the shit they are spouting then I can imagine there's not many people in real life around them left. Trying to shock on a forum will be all they have.

@Queenconsult oh for pitys sake !
Of course some cleaners clean homes 🙄
And some clean crime scenes, public toilets, hospital wards, the inside of buses, offices, shopping centres, schools......and 100s of other places.
It's unbelievably insulting to say "a monkey could do it". Incredibly rude and insulting.

do cleaners who clean homes not do a job?

I honestly don't think anyone "deserves praise" for doing ordinary stuff. Hopefully they feel appreciated by their own partners and children, but they shouldn't need "praise" from anyone else, whether they are SAHP or WOHP.

Personally, I would reserve praise for people who achieve extraordinary things, either in their careers or in some other sphere. Nobody should expect praise for just getting on with ordinary life.

@Queenconsult "Cleaners" - as in people who do it for a job don't just clean homes though.

You don’t seem to understand the act of cleaning isn’t reliant on understanding what to use. After long enough the result would be the same. A clean home.

Same applies to all menial jobs.

@Queenconsult really?
A monkey could understand which products are best for cleaning certain things. They would understand when you can't mix and match some products due to health and safety (ie mixing chemicals)? They would understand that some fluids or growths may be dangerous to their health and they should use safety equipment (ie cleaning up possibly infected blood or cleaning mould)?
Monkeys can do that? Wow I'm impressed. Go Monkeys 🐵

But women who work part time or are sahms, I don't hear them getting any praise for the hours they put into childcare and keeping house.

IME most ‘career women’ (aka women who work full time) manage to have a full time job AND look after the kids (aka get them ready for school etc) and keep a house. So IMO they do deserve more praise.

But that’s merely a question of time

you could give a monkey a cloth and given enough time the place would be clean