AIBU to wonder if sleep training negatively impacts a child (attachment theory)?

Many many many people who are now 30+ would’ve been sleep trained as babies, probably the majority. And they’re a mentally healthier bunch than the kids/teens/20 somethings.

When studying child psychology? Did you come across the Romanian orphan study? Those children did not cry as they knew they would not get a response due to staff shortages which led to severe neglect.
I haven't done sleep training personally but I thought the point was that they do get a response but not to be picked up and cuddled or rocked back to sleep?

I've sleep trained over 100 babies and young children. It can be done without screaming and upset. It is good for them to be independent. Everyone sleeps better longer term and is happier. I am still in contact with a good number of these young people and none are traumatised or disturbed, and none of them blame me or dislike me.

God your parents sound disgusting @Feralgremlin. That's truly awful.

I heard Vernon Kay on the happy mum happy baby podcast say something similar. He said he and Tess Daly would check their girls had been fed and had a clean nappy and then shut the door on them at night 😔 really put me off them both.

My parents did cry it out with me and gloat about how I had cried so hard and so long that I had lost my voice the next day.

I didn’t sleep train DS, we co-slept on and off (not when he was a tiny baby) and even when he was in his own room he knew my door was always open. He is 11 now and sleeps fine, he will still come and find me if he has a nightmare or is unwell. I obviously can’t say whether it would have affected his attachment as I never tried it. In the same way I can’t say whether sleep training affected me, I know I’m not a naturally affectionate person, I know I struggle to ask for help, and I have had blips with my mental health over the years but this could have happened anyway and might just be the way I’m genetically programmed.

Trying to work out solutions for baby sleep, at times, is a completely mind bend!

My eldest would not sleep. I tried sleep training of various forms and nothing worked. She is 3.5 now and sleeps through(ISH), I think despite my sleep training efforts she still loves me 😄

My youngest had a bit of a reality check when I started working nights again a few months ago. 2 nights of me being at work and dad letting him cry it out worked. He now puts himself to sleep and wakes up at 7am. Again I'm pretty sure he still loves me and his dad 😄

Good luck with the baby sleep puzzle OP x

We just did routine from day 1 & didn't need to sleep train.

I think it's glossed over nowadays that it's important for a Mum to be rested. So many people on here complain about multiple night wake ups. It's not good for either baby or parent to get broken sleep every night. I don't comprehend why people don't focus on sleeping more. You will have many people telling you to accept broken nights as it's just normal. I honestly think this is a modern day thing. Years ago it was normal to sleep train

I and my siblings were sleep trained.

Im turning 40, I'm happy and have close, affectionate relationships with parents and siblings. I have a very secure attachment with my mum especially.

My own children were gently sleep trained at a few months old. Both sleep very well and are confident, secure children who are very loving towards me. They also readily communicate their needs, they cry easily if hurt/stressed or ill. They know I'll meet their needs but also that I'm not bound to tend to their every whimsical desire.

Meeting a child’s needs does not mean responding immediately to every cry (obviously speed required depends on age). In fact, quite the opposite: if you respond immediately all the time they don’t learn how to manage. My most confident and relaxed child is the one I ignored the most (through circumstances!) Often what we are responding to is our own pain, because we hate to hear the baby cry, but actually it is not always kindest to avoid all crying.

I would also say that the effects of bad sleep deprivation on our ability to be rational, kind and patient are so awful that you will damage them more (as well as damaging other children in the family) through sleep-deprived parenting than through sleep training.

I am not advocating leaving them to scream alone for weeks, but proper sleep training should work within a week.
Actually if you start early you don’t need to do proper cry it out. Imagine that you had several children to put to bed and couldn’t respond immediately and give it that kind of pause if you can from when they are 8-12 weeks ish.

Only if by sleep training you mean put them.in bed and ignore them all night after that.
If you mean a normal method like returning in ever increasing times, settling in cot instead of arms then obviously not. I do wonder how much attention you were paying to those lectures to ask this tbh 🤔

IMO you are conflating two separate issues.

Babies who experience severe neglect may well no longer cry out.

Babies living in loving homes, experiencing a few days of sleep training are not these children.

I didn’t sleep train my DC because I never got to the point where I felt I needed to, however I would do. To be honest it’s not something parents do lightly. Usually it is the least worst option at a difficult time. I think more about the long term impact of very poor sleep on a child’s development and on the wellbeing and safety of the whole family.

I sleep trained my two and they're both happy, well-balanced kids.

The alternative would have been to keep plodding along, getting more tired and angry by the day and probably indirectly taking it out on the kids - needing more breaks from them, losing my temper quickly, feeling intensely frustrated for long periods of time. I would argue that that would have had more potential to cause psychological damage.

@Ithinkitstimeforbed cry it out isn’t sleep training. And 4 months is far too young! I waited until 8-9.

My niece was sleep trained with cry it out at 4 months. Personally I think that was a bit young for proper cry it out. A gentler method maybe… anyway She doesn’t ever cry out in the night at all now, so if she vomits in the night she doesn’t cry or alert her parents. Often she’s had a temperature in the morning, presumably overnight too but no crying then either. I can only attribute this to sleep training? I’d have thought it’s natural to cry- I know my son does. Anecdotally she very very clingy to her parents and in one particular sleep toy. It’s hard to tell if sleep training has an impact on clingyness, as that could just be her personality. She’s also not very confident and very shy- I’d assume that’s personality and not linked to sleep training, but who knows, there’ll be loads of kids who weren’t sleep trained who will be the same!

Anyway the never crying out for parents at night was enough for my husband and I to know we wouldn’t sleep train our son. but not sleep training also worked for us, if he was a nightmare sleeper we might have had to look into it!

Maybe it depends on the child's personality too, I've seen alot of different parenting because I'm a childminder and have also worked in hospital.
Before I had my own children and due to seeing alot of challenging behaviour, I knew that rules and routine was the only way. I also sadly was on shift when a baby was bought in lifeless because of co-sleeping and didn't make it. For me there is nor safe and unsafe co sleeping, things like this never leave you.
With my own children I put them down and got straight into a routine, if they cried, I settled them, but always put back. I have had 2 amazing sleepers who are ready to learn and absorb, not tired and ratty. I also would not have the patience to be so overtired that I barely function. The key aspect in a child's life is their caregiver who Is willing and ready to engage, who wants to play with them and take them out, not someone flaked out on the sofa (and I'm an emotional wreck when I'm tired). As a childminder I've had some terrible sleepers, not sure why, sometimes it seems they have no routine and mum/dad lay with them until they are asleep which doesn't seem to help because as soon as they wake they cry. Others I've had where parents say they don't sleep, won't settle but I just put them to nap and they do, no dramas 🤷‍♀️ so personally I do wonder if routines, boundaries and consistency make for a much smoother experience. To give an example I have a 3 year old sobbing at drop off but so is the mum! She's hanging on the child saying I'll miss you etc and child's beside themself hysterical. 10 seconds in the door and child is 100% happy, laughing, smiling, engaged. Alot of its for mums 🤦‍♀️

Regarding sleep training, you need to consider the overall balance of harm. Some gentle, age-appropriate sleep training will not harm a child. However, years of chronic sleep deprivation for the parents and the child will have a negative impact on everyone. Extended sleep deprivation for the mothers means they are more likely to develop depression, which has a negative impact on their children.

I sleep trained my 4 year old as a baby and her reports often remark how happy and confident she is. She’s also a great sleeper, usually sleeping 7.30 to 7.

Sleep is a need. You can spot a cranky, overtired baby from a mile off. And a cranky overtired toddler. They tend to be highly strung, clingy, shrieky and just really unhappy. Sleep training is far better than letting them stay in that state for months/years.

Sometimes I wonder if some of the increase in behavioural issues noted by teachers is due to chronic and severe lack of sleep. This ‘child lead, waking 8 times a night until 11 is biologically normal’ approach may be behind this.

The thing is not that you don’t respond to their needs. You stop responding to that specific desire in a specific way. We did it with all 4 of ours at 6 months and it worked a treat.

It’s not like we just leave them to cry for hours and hours- when they were crying you had to go in every 5 minutes, shush them and walk out again. They knew you were there, they just weren’t going to get picked up for crying in this particular context. It’s not like my two youngest don’t cry- at 2 and 3 they cry like normal children, and of course we respond to their needs.

The 3 yo has recently undone part of her sleep training with the trauma of her preschool vaccinations. So it was back to settling her then going back in every 5 minutes…mostly now she cries if she’s kicked her blanket off and she’s cold.

Exactly, babies so severely neglected that not only did they have significant emotional and mental issues, a lot of them were left with physical disabilities too.

But sure, let's compare them (or babies of addicts, or abusive parents) with little Timmy left to cry for 5 minutes while the parents have a much needed coffee or little Sarah being sleep trained in her warm,loving ,safe home.

We sleep trained our son at 5 months. It took 3 nights and he has no lack of attachment to us in any way that I can tell. Because he's sleep trained, we know that on the rare occasion he's crying out for us in the night there's genuinely something the matter and we go in to soothe him. He became a much calmer and happier baby once he was getting a full night's sleep. We can put him down at bedtime and he happily rolls around and chats to himself until he sleeps.

Other people we know didn't sleep train. I wouldn't say their kids are any more attached to their parents (in healthy ways at least!) than our son, and many of them still don't get good night's sleep or easy bedtime years later.

I've sleep trained both my children. Had to use ferber with dc1 after trying everything else and trying to save my sanity. He didn't sleep through solidly until he was 6!!! But, ferber done properly and consistently helped reduce the amount of wake ups and extended his sleep.

New baby and I wasn't messing around this time. Started sleep training from 8wks old. I checked out alot of American publications on sleep training and what they do. Often American mom's are back to work 3-6m pp. Baby is now 10m and sleep through solid 7pm til 7am since she was 12 wks old. ( minor disturbances during teething, a bout of covid and the dreaded 4 m regression)

The techniques used are very gentle and baby led. Lots of shushing, patting and cuddles. Responding immediately to their cries so they know you are there for them. It took around 4 wks of being consistent to get to the stage where she sleeps through.

Putting them down when they are sleepy but awake to now I can put down awake near the end of a wake window and she will put her self to sleep and self sooth when she's wakes up in the night.

We have a solid bedtime routine and have had one since 8wks. I think has helped massively. Also, baby was tiny was when she was born but as soon as she gained a decent amount of weight and didn't need regular night feeds helped. (Mix fed)

Sleep training may have helped or maybe I'm lucky this time around and have a good sleeper. I'll never know but I'm definitely not complaining

DC1 (ASD) was an horrendous sleeper, they were attached to me 24/7 and would scream constantly, not just as a baby but throughout the toddler years. The first time they slept through the night was at 4 years old! I really don’t know how I got through it.

With DC2 & 3, literally from birth I would feed them and put them down to sleep. I didn’t cuddle or rock them to sleep ever. Both slept amazingly, rarely cried and would go off to sleep in a couple of minutes. They’re adults now and still love their beds!

How old is she?

My advice before doing any sleep training at all would be to rule out any other potential issues and in your case, that would be the CMPA. If that is sorted such as changing milk etc and nothing changes then I would have a look at wake windows for her age and see if that improves anything since if she isn't in pain, I'll bet that she's overtired which can so easily happen and then they fight sleep even more so it can get tricky. Sleep cues can be great but sometimes they can happen when baby is already overtired, ideally, you'll want to get her 'sweet spot' where she's tired but not too tired.

You have a solid bedtime routine already which is great so the other thing I'd look at before sleep training is how she goes to sleep and if she is rocked or goes to sleep with a bottle then that is something else to work on or can also be the first part of sleep training.

We sleep trained DD1. She's 4.5 now and a really good sleeper. But if she wakes in the night (maybe once a month), she will call or come in, so she hasn't learnt that we won't comfort her.
But after a cuddle, she's very happy for us to leave and to go back to sleep by herself.

Obviously it's all anecdotal, so doesn't mean much for me to say "oh I think she's fine!" But, for what it's worth, I think she's fine.