AIBU to wonder if sleep training negatively impacts a child (attachment theory)?

Depends on what method...

If you leave them to cry (eg: Cry it out) and don't comfort them- yes- most probably....the first two years of life are the most important for brain development and forming a secure attachment.

If you do an approach where you aren't leaving them to cry for any length of time (ie; afew mins tops) without comfort and responsiveness, so they are secure in knowing you will go to them when they cry and offer them the comfort they need, I think its unlikely it would have any detrimental impact.

A baby may learn in its own time to sleep through the night but we weren’t prepared to wait for that to happen. Babies and parents need a good nights sleep on a consistent basis particularly if you have to get up and go to work each day. Training, done in the right way is a positive.

The OP was wondering whether sleep training affects attachment. Obviously someone who hasn't sleep trained wouldn't know, so it's hardly surprising that most responses come from those with experience.

I don't think this is a fair assumption because surely we're talking about something like "does smoking cause cancer?" not "Does jumping out of a tenth storey window kill you?"

There is a clear and well known link between smoking and cancer, but not every smoker will get cancer and not every cancer is caused by smoking.

Therefore, individual anecdotes about whether individual children are fine or not are not especially useful - you want to look at the research evidence, and anyone can do that, regardless of what their own personal parenting approach was.

As I understand it there has been quite a lot of research on sleep training, all of which tells us very little.

And as someone (I'm afraid I can't remember who) pointed out, if there was a very clear link either way then it would have come out in the research by now. The fact is it hasn't. So the idea that it is consistently causing terrible and severe harm is at best exaggerated and at worst deliberately manipulative.

I can give you lots of reasons why I don't like it as a practice but I think the idea that it harms attachment is overblown - there's just no evidence to support that.

I do think that the idea that you can either do Ferber (or some very close alternative) or just live with it for years is a problem, though, and all the moralising people attach to the decision to sleep train (or not) is so unhelpful.

It is possible to change sleep patterns and habits more slowly without resorting to behaviourism (which is what sleep training is - extinction) it's just a lot more work for the parent. Although I suppose this is actually still behaviourism - I'm referring to scaffolding (where you break down a goal into steps rather than trying to do the whole thing at once) or acclimatisation. You can't necessarily change the amount of times that they wake up, well other than experimenting with different nap lengths/timings during the day anyway - but you can change what happens when they wake up and therefore what they expect to happen.

And it's possible to make adjustments to sleeping arrangements so that the impact of a child's night wakings or need for proximity while sleeping are less disruptive.

I don't like this either or with no in between, and I don't like the narrative that certain things are "bad habits" or "negative associations" nor the idea that if you don't do something by a certain age it will never happen - just silly and scaremongering!

I think if you're literally going to put them in a room and close the door at 6 weeks old or something, then you're probably going to end up activating the survival mechanism that makes them go silent because it's their best defence against predators if the first defence (signalling a caregiver) didn't work. And that seems likely that it would cause some kind of trauma/attachment rupture. You can see this also in the still face experiment where a caregiver deliberately stops responding to a baby. Their behaviour follows the same pattern - they try to get the caregiver's attention. They try harder. They try harder. They become distressed, and then they go quiet and seem to stop responding to anything. They are also producing a lot of stress hormones at this point. (They recover immediately as soon as the caregiver starts to respond again).

And right at the other end of the spectrum, there are some babies who are genuinely fine lying in their bed alone, and they are crying in protest at you leaving, but they fairly quickly stop, and I can't imagine that this is damaging, and I think every parent does some form of this sometimes - you know, when you strap them into the car seat or the pushchair and they complain because they would really prefer to have a cuddle 24/7 but you just leave them in the seat (maybe talking/singing to them, but equally maybe not) for a few moments while you have a wee, get your bag, keys, shoes, coat on etc. And as soon as you pick them up and start to leave the house, they're fine. I think sleep training can sometimes be like this, and I don't think this is damaging at all in the context of a loving, mostly responsive relationship.

The thing is that all the stuff you do for a secure attachment, you don't have to do all of them constantly every single minute of the day. As long as the balance is tilted in the direction of responsiveness, empathy, attention etc, it's OK. They don't need to get all of those things immediately all of the time. And even though I don't particularly like the idea of sleep training, it's likely that most sleep training that most people would attempt would easily be balanced out by the other actions that they are doing all day every day. And even in the worst case scenario, let's say it does cause harm, we know that attachment is not something especially fragile - it's stretchy and strong, and once you've built a solid foundation, you can go through some quite tough times and still come out the other side and repair the attachment. So the idea that sleep training is going to cause some deep seated trauma doesn't make any sense. I absolutely believe that it is distressing in the short term and understand that being a reason not to want to do it. But the idea that it's unique in causing some horrific rift is not logical.

I think you have to look at correlation as well - if we know that the really strict/harsh measures of sleep training are correlated with poor attachment, is that because only someone who was pretty detached from their baby anyway, or neglectful anyway (e.g. the hypothetical parent who goes on drug binges) would be likely to choose that method of dealing with overnights? And someone who has empathy for their child and feels that pull when they are upset is unlikely to even attempt that kind of thing.

In it's own time might mean years though. I think it's unnecessary to be sleep deprived for potentially years as well as having a miserable, over tired baby when you can sleep train and everyone can be well rested as soon as possible.

An interesting question is whether very poor sleep as an infant damages attachment. There’s an interesting paper entitled ‘My mother is sensitive, but I am too tired to know’ Bernier et al. 2014.

Your opinion is that training is “unnecessary” but do you accept that some parents feel like they have no choice but to sleep train because of their own circumstances?

@Marfs10

I also wanted to comment on the couple of posters who said they knew babies that died of "cosleeping".

SIDS is always a tragedy, but it's misleading to suggest that cosleeping when done safely and in a planned way is more dangerous than cot sleeping.

No, I am not suggesting that they are lying. I'm suggesting that "training" is unnecessary when it's something that the baby will learn in its own time if given the chance.

Not all babies learn to sleep in time themselves though. It took 6 years and a melatonin prescription for my dd to be sleep. 6 YEARS of sleep deprivation for her, that affected her so badly she was referred to the child psychiatrist.
Some children need help to sleep, it's cruel to let them suffer like I did because anti-sleep training people convinced me that sleep training was bad and harmful.

@Hughs

The OP was wondering whether sleep training affects attachment. Obviously someone who hasn't sleep trained wouldn't know, so it's hardly surprising that most responses come from those with experience

Yes, and the vast majority of people who sleep train are of the opinion that it's absolutely fine and best for their child. I would say even the parents of the PP's niece who no longer calls out at night under any circumstances and is generally quite anxious and clingy.

I can have an opinion on sleep training without having tried it myself and reasons that I did not consider it. It's a discussion is it not?

Unless you're suggesting that everyone on here who has taught their DC to sleep better is deluded or lying, you absolutely can teach them better sleep habits. Or maybe the success stories all involve children who coincidentally became developmentally ready to sleep through just at the time they were sleep trained.

No, I am not suggesting that they are lying. I'm suggesting that "training" is unnecessary when it's something that the baby will learn in its own time if given the chance.

And yes, there are people who could and would get involved if a child isn't walking when they should, starting with the health visitor or GP, then maybe consultant paediatrician, physio, orthopaedics, neurology etc.

Exactly. Qualified medical professionals who can recognise a problem. Not someone who's done a 10-hour online course and posts advice on Instagram.

Sorry to derail the thread, but just in response to the poster that said that cosleeping is a known risk for SIDS. There’s a massive difference between safe cosleeping and unsafe cosleeping, and actually a lot of the research suggests that safe cosleeping does not increase SIDS risk (La Leche League Sweet Sleep book for references). By the same token, that would suggest that countries with higher cosleeping risks would also have higher incidence of SIDS and current information doesn’t indicate this.

In response to the original thread, I do not think that short term, gentle sleep training methods will harm a child. However, I do think the whole sleep training industry is completely unregulated and there are a lot of people with very little knowledge making a lot of money out of desperate parents.

Personally, I haven’t and don’t intend to sleep train. It’s a very Western idea - in countries where sleep training isn’t the norm (there are lots!) the majority of children seem to grow into perfectly functioning, sleeping adults so I’m not entirely sure it’s necessary. I have just adjusted my expectations of my child, one day he won’t need me in the night but for now, he does and that’s more than okay for me.

I've read the whole thread and it seems that 95% of responses are from people who sleep trained, so I'm not quite sure it's a balanced view.

The OP was wondering whether sleep training affects attachment. Obviously someone who hasn't sleep trained wouldn't know, so it's hardly surprising that most responses come from those with experience.

Personally, I don't see sleep as something that I can "teach" my baby to do. It's something that they do when they're developmentally ready and that's different for every single baby. There's no "walking consultants" offering their fool-proof method to get your baby on their feet in just 3 days ("my baby was so much happier once she could move around independently!").

Unless you're suggesting that everyone on here who has taught their DC to sleep better is deluded or lying, you absolutely can teach them better sleep habits. Or maybe the success stories all involve children who coincidentally became developmentally ready to sleep through just at the time they were sleep trained.

And yes, there are people who could and would get involved if a child isn't walking when they should, starting with the health visitor or GP, then maybe consultant paediatrician, physio, orthopaedics, neurology etc.

I have sleep trained both of mine, but you can't tell whether a person will have attachment issues when they're a child, so anecdotes about 6 year olds are pointless. It's the adult that they become that you want to keep an eye on

@MrsFernsby I partly agree with you that working has an impact but that's true of lots of parenting decisions and approaches. Also, I chose to sleep train on mat leave because my mental health was so severely impacted. Catching up on sleep during the day would have made little difference. What I required was a long stint of consecutive hours of sleep.

Sleep deprivation is used as torture. It is a fundamental human need. Months and months of broken sleep made me feel like a shell of myself. I was the opposite of a responsive mother because I was so depressed and I had stopped feeling anything. I often feel like a failure because other mothers just put up with it and still manage to be good mothers.

I don't think anyone should sleep train if they don't want to but I really feel so sad that others are made to feel like they are damaging their children if they do.

There is also no need to spend money on sleep consultants. There is plenty of free information on how to approach sleep training online.

I will stop posting now as I am taking up too much of this thread. I guess it all just takes me back to a period where I felt very, very low.

This is an odd analogy. Actually adults wouldn’t do at all well with someone trying to get them to sleep. If I have a bad dream I need a bit of sympathy and then to be left alone.

But actually I don’t think we need to reason based on what science says or cavemen did. I think we can trust our own judgement about what the baby and the rest of the family need. That’s key imo- the baby is hugely important, particularly early on, but is not the only member of the family with needs.

I completely disagree about sleeping not being a skill. Perhaps more accurately it is a habit. Everyone needs to learn good sleep habits. I know plenty of adults without them. But obviously all children learn at different rates and need varying levels of support to learn to sleep.

I've read the whole thread and it seems that 95% of responses are from people who sleep trained, so I'm not quite sure it's a balanced view.

I think PPs recommending sorting your baby's tummy issues are 100% correct, as no one sleeps well with a sore tummy! So any sort of sleep training before she's comfortable would be pointless.

Sleep training has been such a big business for a long time. I think many take advantage of exhausted, desperate parents. The strictness that some imply is necessary is crazy to me - "wake windows" and the pressure to get your baby to that mysterious sweet spot so they're ready to go to sleep (oops! Sorry! You overstimulated your baby! Now she's overtired!). It's enough to send anyone mad. What are the qualifications required for a "sleep consultant" by the way?

Personally, I don't see sleep as something that I can "teach" my baby to do. It's something that they do when they're developmentally ready and that's different for every single baby. There's no "walking consultants" offering their fool-proof method to get your baby on their feet in just 3 days ("my baby was so much happier once she could move around independently!").

For the PP who mentioned that we wouldn't have got on very well "as a species" if babies couldn't be left to cry for a while, I really don't think our ancestors would have required Ferber. They kept their babies with them, and they surely weren't being put to sleep in the next cave.

I think work habits have a lot to answer for. You have to work to get paid, you have to be somewhat alert in order to do your work, so baby must let you get the sleep you need. And if you're at home, I think the vast majority no longer have that village around them that would let them catch up on sleep. You're required to do it all alone.

It's obviously an emotive subject for lots of people. Everyone wants the best for their baby!

When I think about sleep training, I just imagine myself crying because I'd had a bad dream or perhaps I was struggling to get back to sleep. Would I want my husband to come in, pat and shush me without making eye contact then go out? I don't think I'd feel very comforted by that.

Often the reasons for disturbed night sleep are the same as the reasons for short naps. I think the idea that short naps massively impact night time sleep is probably overstated. It's all a bit of a vicious cycle and if there is something underlying like CMPA then that will affect daytime and night time.
Incidentally my LO would only do 30 minute naps before she was sleep trained. As soon as she stirred, she was up because she wasn't linking sleep cycles.

OP, I really feel for you. I don’t have any experience with CMPA, but my DD did 30 min naps max for a long time. It would take longer to rock her to sleep than her actual nap lasted. A few weeks ago I started doing only one nap; it took a few days for her to get used to staying awake longer, but it meant that the rocking was much shorter and the nap longer as she was more tired.
Since each day varies wildly in terms of how early she will choose to wake up for the day and how long the nap is, some days she still needs a short second nap, but on the whole we have a bit of a longer stretch.
I also got DH (who WFH) to rock her back to sleep when she woke after a very short time, instead of just taking her out of her cot and assuming she was done. Eventually she started staying asleep for longer.

Mine is the same age and is the opposite! He has a handful of words but runs all over the place. 😅It's funny how so different they can be at the same age.

Also just want to add that I have parented this baby the same as my other 2 DC, yet the others slept through by approximately 6 months. Half the time I beat myself up by wondering what I’m doing wrong, and the other half I convince myself it’s just her nature to resist any form of structure.

@Naptrappedmummy It really is. One of my other DC was the same. She has at least 100 words that she uses consistently and in an appropriate context. But she can’t even pull up to stand yet — my DC seem to develop this part of the brain before their gross motor skills.
Having said that, it definitely doesn’t make for an easy time raising them 😂

Very interesting. It seems to always be unfairly understood as a zero-sum question: you either sleep trained your baby, or you were a good mother who attended to the needs of your baby. I fed and changed my newborn just as she was stirring throughout the night, so I avoided her really properly waking up. After a few weeks this became a routine, so I was able to pre-empt her needs even more fully, which turned into dream feeds on a schedule. As a result, she was sleeping through the night by 8 weeks old - still being fed, of course. Not sure if that’s classed as ‘sleep training’, as it doesn’t fit the ‘cry it out’ narrative, but it sure did train her to stay asleep. After a while she rejected the night feeds, one at a time, and by a few months old was satisfied with a last dream feed at 10pm. By six months she’d rejected this too.

She is a very strong character with a huge vocabulary and can express her wants and opinions very well.

That’s remarkable for a 15 month old.