AIBU to wonder if sleep training negatively impacts a child (attachment theory)?

@user666555 hi, my little girl was exactly like yours! How is she doing now?

Sounds like it is!

Agreed, though I tend to be a little lenient on the definition of a crutch - after all, adults are aided by routines to help them sleep.

Mind you, he's just come in after his walk, stayed asleep in the pram even though mummy dropped a spoon and daddy started vacuuming, so maybe my training is just going very well!

Sounds like a really good plan. Working on removing sleep crutches early can hopefully mean he'll never need sleep training. And good to get them used to sleeping in disruptions too, once he's sleeping well - my DS can sleep under any circumstances now, he'll quite often fall asleep with the light on and listening to heavy metal!
Good luck!

Well, I try and gently remove the crutches before he's asleep - e.g. I stop rolling the pram as soon as he looks drowsy, stop shushing before he's asleep - and planning to reduce further. I actually managed to back off with his eyes still open a fraction and got away with it once. I plan actually to add disruptive elements such as more general background noise as I go along.

The first thing for me is just getting the poor love to sleep more in the day! Like I say, his mood is much better already for the extra rest.

@thecatsthecats what you do is not unlike what I did with all my kids, especially for naps. I facilitated them getting back to sleep, either by rocking or shushing when they started to wake after 30/40 minutes.

It wasn’t long after that they took great naps and slept through at night too. I didn’t have to do that for long.

I have done childcare for families who use a SNOO bassinet, and it’s based on that same concept. Once the kids start to stir the bassinet starts moving and the kids nod back off. When these kids were moved to a full sized cot at 6 months they transitioned very easily. One of them needed 1 day of “sleep training” at nap time.

I'd say that's just finding a sleep crutch to help him nap, not sleep training as such. It's good it's improving his sleep and at 4 month regression I think it's just a case of helping them sleep however they will but you might find he becomes dependent on the pram rocking to nap (but hopefully he won't associate it with night sleep). I remember my ds as a small baby would only nap in the pram but sometimes just putting him in the carrycot of it was enough to make him think he was going for a pram walk and fall asleep

I wish I sleep trained. With my DD I didn’t, we co-slept but I was a single mum, not sharing my bed with anyone but it made it super difficult to get her in her own bed when I felt she needed to be (so from the age of 3+),she would always get into my bed (usually in the middle of the night and I’m a deep sleeper so never noticed) until the age of about 7 which is a very long time!

Yes we are close, but I would also say your general parenting style will have as much of a role in how attached or detached you are. I had to let her cry for many things to get stuff done (sh absolutly hated me going to the toilet or having a shower for example) but she had to cry it out if she was cleaned and fed. So my thinking is that there must be a difference between learning to sleep by crying it out abit, and crying it out during the day when babies basic needs have to be met like feeding or wanting a cuddle.

I do plan to sleep train for my second as life has significantly changed.

I'm interested to know if anyone thinks that what I'm currently doing counts as sleep training.

DS has never responded well to drowsy but awake, but he's going through the four month regression, and has only been able to manage 30m naps. All pram naps or contact naps, and we coslept up until 3m when he decided his cot was ok.

Due to the filthy rain this week, I tried rocking him in his pram. Then gently stopping the rocking when he went drowsy. Then slowly backing off as his eyes dropped (he gives me lovely little smiles as this happens, which I return). Then I return just before the usual 30m is up, rock and shush - he wakes up a little but manages to fall back asleep and stay down another hour plus.

He's managed to increase his day sleep to 4.5 from 2h this way, and is far less cranky. He's also dropped a night waking and is less distracted when feeding.

@user666555 . They were EBF until 6 months so.went with the flow. Then started reducing night feeds. Then put them down to sleep after cuddles etc. I used to wait outside their door to see if they were upset. Usually they.settled after 10 muns or so. I wouldn't leave them.to cry for a long time or anything and maybe there was an element of luck. I think it got easier when we started weaning.

We trained DT’s at 5 months. I was going back to work when they were six months and needed a good routine

I think that it is very important that children learn to develop good sleep habits. It isn't good for young children not to get enough sleep. A child that is awake all through the night can't thrive. It's awful for parents too. So, for me part of our role as parents is to teach them how to sleep. Babies often need a little time to settle. No baby should be left to cry, I agree but 5 - 10 while they settle is fine. When they wake in the night the same. My children were sleep trained - whatever that means. Slept through at 6 months. Happy rested babies and parents who had evening free. Everyone is different though I guess.

@thecatsthecats I think that's right. No one wants to do anything that will harm their baby, so it's a very emotive subject.

As a PP also mentioned, I think research is pretty much impossible on this subject as there's so many methods and degrees of sleep training. Many people, including on this thread, even claim now that cry it out "isn't sleep training", perhaps to avoid association with its harsh reputation?

@Toastcrumbsinsofa

"In the same way that we teach babies how to talk or walk"

How do you teach babies to walk or talk? Sure, you can read to them and talk to them, hold their hands to support them - but they don't start walking and talking unless they are ready to. Your baby can benefit from your support, but ultimately it's down to development. Support also requires your presence.

Babies are sponges soaking up all the information they can about the world. If you teach them you won't pick them up when they cry when they're in their cot, I'd say most will catch on eventually. As PPs have said, I don't think this will damage your bond if you're responsive and engaged the rest of the time.

Sleep training isn't a necessity though.

I imagine it is extremely difficult to get clear evidence of attachment/ emotional damage either way when the methods are so varied? It’s not like it’s an even comparison.

It's also entirely fruitless on an anecdata level, because people simply say that their children turned out "fine" or "great".

DH was an extreme premie and as such didn't get many newborn cuddles. He was just too fragile for months.

Is he great/fine? Yes. Does he have attachment issues? Also yes.

His parents literally couldn't do anything different, but when DH repeated my casual assessment of his attachment issues to MIL she was still upset/offended (quite right too, he was a right berk telling her).

And parents are all too keen to have their choices validated.

We did not do cry it out. We did the walking out of the room and going back in to shush - repeatedly- or with the other who was already in a bed (previously no problems sleeping but got worse around 2) taking them back to bed while saying nothing - I think this was the super nanny method. That worked well for us. Tough first night, not as bad second night, almost there third night. Wished I’d gone it weeks earlier.

But I would not do cry it out.

I agree that it is the more unusual method. On any sleep training thread I've been on, it is usually the ones against sleep training who assume that is what others mean when they say sleep training.

Usually, people are talking about Ferber if any crying is involved but other than that it is definitely more gentle methods.

This puts it very well. Avoid the extremes - never putting a baby down because they might cry a bit is terrible, in my view, because it will lead to parental exhaustion. But obviously a neglected baby will learn that no one comes, which will be very damaging.

With my two (now early 20s and mid teens) it was relatively easy as they both messed about either standing up in the cot laughing or whinging a bit.

I accept it’s harder if you’ve got one that moves swiftly to full on screaming and vomiting, clearly terrified.

A lot of people are saying that sleep training is not leaving your baby to cry it out for however long that takes. That’s incorrect. It sometimes is exactly this!

Sometimes it is this (very unusually, IMO). One form of sleep training is leaving your baby to cry it out for however long that takes. When people use the language of “sleep training” they do not necessarily mean what you claim they do, I certainly don’t and neither have most of the people on this thread, except the ones keen to call us selfish child abusers who should just try harder and then we too could have had the best bond. You’re the one who is incorrect.

Sorry but I completely diagree with you. There are many people that have posted on Mumsnet saying they have done just that in my opinion. A small baby is completely vulnerable. They cannot move themselves from where they are, they cannot feed themselves if they are hungry, they cannot get water if they are thirsty. They often suffer from reflux, wind, teething pain and other things that make them uncomfortable but of which they are unable to help themselves with. Then there are parents on Mumsnet telling people they have sleep trained their children by putting them in their cot, shutting the door and letting them 'cry it out'. To me that is leaving a small, vulnerable child to cry. If it isn't, what is it? I'm confused what that is actually supposed to teach a baby?
If you think im misinformed about that then maybe you ought to read through old sleep training posts on Mumsnet because there are plenty advocating the above.
Again, I understand that a lot of sleep training is NOT as harsh as this and I don't think there is anything wrong with people using gentle methods if it's better for both parents and babies wellbeing but there are plenty of pro sleep training people who think those sort of harsh cry it out methods are OK.
As for the OP's orignal question, presumably there isn't any long term data either way of doing things and people's own personal anecdotes are in no way evidence.

A lot of people are saying that sleep training is not leaving your baby to cry it out for however long that takes. That’s incorrect. It sometimes is exactly this!

I know multiple families who have done Cry it out ‘extinction’ method. It is not uncommon. It makes me very uncomfortable and sad. I can personally see the anxiety in their children, but can’t say that is the only cause.

there are also many other methods that are seen to be gentler where the parent is more Present.
I won’t comment on the more gentler methods because I haven’t witnessed these to know much about them.

I imagine it is extremely difficult to get clear evidence of attachment/ emotional damage either way when the methods are so varied? It’s not like it’s an even comparison.

parents have their own opinions and will vehemently stand by them on either side of the fence.

it’s what you personally feel comfortable with at the end of the day. Many parents don’t feel comfortable with any form of controlled crying where the baby is unsupported at night. That doesn’t make them weak or overprotective. Many other parents feel that they have to do something if there relationship/work/mental health is being too impacted by the lack of sleep, that they might be a better parent after the training. Some people don’t agree with the idea that the baby should have to experience the upset to make things better for the parent.

It’s all very personal and provocative really. I don’t think studies will make a difference to the opinions of most parents and I don’t think any studies can be accurate enough given how many variables there are.

@Bumble6
Implying that people who sleep train "leave them as such small, vulnerable children on their own and not respond to their crying" is misinformed, as PPs have pointed out.

Implying sleep training must be impossible because sleep is a developmental thing is also misinformed. There are many stories on here of parents helping their children to sleep better. You absolutely don't have to be passive about letting them suffer and risking the developmental effects of months or years of poor sleep.

My DC were all sleep trained at around 6 or 7 months. I have dyspraxia and lack of sleep makes me even more clumsy. I crashed the car a few times, fell down stairs carrying the baby etc. I had to sleep train for everyone else’s safety!

My DC are all in their 30s now. They are normal, independent, happy adults who have loving relationships and professional jobs. One of my DC (who is a doctor) also has dyspraxia and is currently sleep training my baby grandchild.

In the same way that we teach babies how to talk or walk, it is our job as parents to teach our DC that unbroken sleep is vital for their development and wellbeing. It’s also important that parents get enough sleep too. Good sleep habits need to be taught to babies so that they understand how to settle by themselves. Gentle sleep training from loving, attentive parents in a secure, happy family unit isn’t neglectful and I absolutely don’t believe any ‘research’ that tries to prove this.

It’s still very very early days in terms of sleep OP.

Currently I have DD2 (11 weeks with CMPA) and in the day she naps better if she naps on me. There is a lot to be said for longer day naps helping night sleep but it’s too early for a very regular patter just yet. The most predictable around this age is wanting a big nap about 90mins after they’ve woken up for the day.

With DD1 (horrendous reflux) she was a terrible day and night sleeper until we did the Jo Frost sleep method at 7.5 months. Once I had night sorted I could work on day naps and i remember putting a lot of effort into cot napping for when she started nursery age 1 year. It was only really then that she was in a 3 naps a day in cot routine.

12 weeks is still newborn sleep patterns and newborns need a lot of help to sleep. It’s too early for formal sleep training but as your baby will be starting to recognise patterns, you could introduce a bed time routine, involving fresh nappy, book and lullaby to help then distinguish bed time from naps.

At 16 weeks they will switch to a more mature sleep pattern with 40 min sleep cycles and it becomes a bit more effective.

Have you tried swaddling at night? I find this a big CMPA help with dd2.

I also had a cmpa reflux baby - and sleep training is never going to work when they are waking up because they are in pain.

wedgehog make special reflux wedges that you can stick underneath the mattress (different sizes for different makes of cot/crib) and the slightly elevated angle can help some babies sleep as they get less reflux symptoms when gravity isn’t working against them.

Soon they will be old enough to switch to a buggy seat rather than a flat pram - which can be a game changer for buggy naps as being in that more upright position makes a big difference in how much reflux they experience. But to be honest in the early months of a reflux baby they mostly nap best with you holding them - it’s exhausting for you but they are tiny and in pain and there’s not really anything you can do to train them out of it.

If the omperazole isn’t working I’d push the gp for a pediatrics referral and maybe discuss trying a different reflux med (though omperazole is one of the better ones) or trying a different allergy milk (there are several types - some with the proteins broken down more than others which can be helpful in the case of very severe allergies). It can also take a bit of time to seem like it’s working because once their oesophagus gets really sore from severe reflux it can take a few weeks to heal and settle even once you’ve got the meds and the allergy stuff right.

Good luck - it’s hard - but they nearly all grow out of it eventually