What do you think the sentence should be for murder?

and in cases where it can be 100% proved that murder was committed, without being provoked like DV (and I do mean 100% - no element of doubt AT ALL) they should be put to death.

If you take a life it should cost you your life. Life should mean 'for the rest of your life'.

It's a life sentence for the families. They don't get out of jail 15 years later.

It needs to be looked at as part of an overall strategy of reform.

But at a minimum,

the percentage of time taken with repeat offenders would dramatically increase if they were locked up - saving in police staffing requirements over time

less staffing so end on the legal system on the prosecution side

less demand for social workers, trauma counsellors etc

Government spending on capital projects during recessionary times is actually used to reduce unemployment also.

I'm not talking about throwing up a few new buildings to house prisoners. I'm taking about the need for full judical and policing reform.

I agree in a theoretical way that yes, some people deserve the death penalty.

I also believe that, even ignoring miscarriages of justice and misuse by the state, the death penalty is unjustified in a civilised society.

And where are you planning to build all these prisons to hold all of the people convicted of these crimes for the rest of their lives? Where are you getting all the prison wardens and other staff from?

I don't believe in the death penalty. There is literally zero benefit other then vengeance for the family of the victim.

It isn't cheaper then life in prison
It isn't a deterrent
Too many innocent people have been wrongly put to death. It's subject to the same biases as the rest of the justice system (racism, sexism etc)

A family member worked in America for a charity that acted on behalf of death row inmates, appealing their death sentence so a first hand view of photos of victims, horrific crimes that she has trauma from but she has also seen the complexity and flaws of the system and is a staunch anti-death penalty advocate. This in the face of the utter despair and heartbreak of the victims family.

I do think that there should be a tiered system here.

Accidental death - (eg allergic reaction out of genuine ignorance) no sentence.

Careless death (parent not watching child and they get hit by car, careless driving) up to 10 years.

Defensive murder (killing an abusive partner) 0-10 years depending on circumstances.

Unpremeditated murder (murdered a spouse when finding them cheating, heat of the moment) up to 20 years

Premeditated murder (poisoning, any planned murder. These are the people you really have to worry about) 20 years absolute minimum custodial sentence.

Murder or premeditated murder with additional brutality. Any torture/rape before the murder, any tampering with the body. 30 years minimum. With an unwritten rule that they never get out. These are the broken phycho serial killers

Again.
No I don't mean 'America'. The USA do not have harsh punishment regime, it's a country where the death penalty exists in some States, but the Federal Laws are no harsher than those of many EU countries.
Shockingly there are other countries in the world besides the UK and the US and in some countries harsh laws and punishments are enforced and their crime rates are very low.

Rightly or wringky, I don't believe those who commit the most serious of crimes can be rehabilitated.

I think all of the following should result in mandatory life in prison.

Murder
Failed Attempted Murder
Child Abuse
Rape
Acid Attacks
Terrorism

If someone is a threat to others in society, why ever gamble on them never reoffending?

Most of us couldn't even contemplate any of the above crimes. We deserve to be safe from those who have proven they are a risk.

Which does not mean life does it?

If you can't do something with someone in 20 years, which is longer than most people spend in education, then you're either not trying hard enough or they're one of the few that are genuinely fucked and nobodies really gonna care if you keep them locked up forever

I was at university with a mature student who had murdered his mother, turned himself in, was found guilty and served 10 odd years before release. We weren't aware of his background until it got into the local press, towards the end of his degree course.
He was accepted as a Church of Scotland candidate and after his training got his own church. While there are still questions about whether he was really repentant, he did (apparently) provide a useful role in society for the rest of his life.

I'd prefer to live in a society where we believe people can be reformed, rather than one which endorses state murder.

We're always told the death penalty isn't a deterrent and I don't believe that at all, see crimes rates in countries with a very harsh punishment regime.

America?

And we have regular miscarriages of justice that decent people would be unhappy to be complicit in.

No. DNA was going to be the absolute proof, until you realise that as with anything else it can be manipulated, planted, etc. DNA doesn't prove anything other than that there is DNA.

OpalOrchid · Yesterday 21:38

''Are you prepared to give that lethal injection then?''

I would have no ethical issues with doing it.

Do you think child killers, serial killers for example deserve to keep breathing?

I don't. There is no redemption for this type of people.

Of course you also need a robust justice system because it is understandable that a woman who ends up killing her abusive partner is very different from an individual who just sees killing as a sport...

If you deliberately plan to kill somebody, then you must stay in prison for as long as the person you killed, remains dead.
In 20 years time the person you killed won’t miraculously come back to life, so you must stay in prison with no parole or release date.

I think prisoners should be set to useful work. Seems mad to have able bodied youngsters sitting about.

Every prisoner should have access to work and/or education. Prisoners who go to work have lower rates of violence, self-harm and re-offending. An ideal prison wing is one where almost everyone ha gone off to some form of purposeful activity.

I work in major crime and the amount of work that would go into proving/disproving a mysterious third party would be so thorough the case would be watertight by court.

i didn’t think I’d respond to this thread but here we go you’ve intrigued me.

The mother killing her childs rapist… does she have to have witnessed the rape herself? Be told by the child? She will surely have to prove that the rapist raped her child right? or is it after the rapist was convicted of the murder?

Also when does the child stop being a child? At 18? Or can my mother murder the man who raped me and nearly left me dead at 28? Or can she only murder the man who SAed me at 8?

A murder is a murder regardless. Idk what the answer is but the man who raped me being murdered because of me wouldn't make me feel better.

I wouldn’t be able to live with that.

Death penalty has been proved not to be a deterrent. I think it degrades society as a whole to allow state sanctioned murder.

Sadly there is something in us as humans that means some of us are capable of this cruelty. Look at what numerous men did to those girls at the music festival in 7 October.

I disagree it’s getting worse - read your history books. It’s just we know about it now.

I think prisoners should be set to useful work. Seems mad to have able bodied youngsters sitting about.

typo -

*such progress not "sick" 🤦🏼‍♀️

This!! People are astonishingly naive if they think there is either the space or funding to just keep everyone with a murder conviction in prison indefinitely. Yes, some offenders cannot be effectively rehabilitated and this will be (hopefully) reflected in their parole hearing reports, hence they won't move on towards release. However those who respond well to rehabilitation attempts, psychological or otherwise, and show a reduction in their risk, will progress to lower cat prisons and eventually release (assuming they continue to show sick progress). I think that's the correct approach, given we don't have unlimited space in our U.K. prison system.

In the U.S. it actually costs more for the state to put someone to death. due to all the legal processes needing to be exhausted. Obviously it’d be cheaper in a just take them round the back and shoot them regime. I’d have to re look up stats but it was circa a million dollars on average. Keeping a lifer in prison was comparatively cheaper by about 150k, people don’t tend to have long lives in prison.

Over the last years the amount of planned, brutal and sadistic killings which have occurred and primarily of women and children, seem to be getting more frequent, and the deterrents are pitiful, so I'm starting to lean in the direction of bring back the death penalty.

DNA is not the foolproof 'gotcha' that some people think it is. Please google to find out more, but for example, this was the first result I got:

https://daily.jstor.org/forensic-dna-evidence-can-lead-wrongful-convictions/