9 year old lying finally told truth

We have been in a similar situation. We tried everything to make it stop, therapy, love bombing, me stepping out of the picture ( I'm step mum) but nothing worked.
The lies grew bigger and bigger to the point I wouldn't be alone with them to protect my own reputation and mental health. They aren't currently part of our daily life now at their request. I know it's because some dreadful behaviour was called out and the lies around it proved and not believed so it's easier for them to not see us because we can't be controlled.
They have no friends, no normal teenage life. My husband's ex has no life either because she's trapped in a relationship that's abusive and everytime she attempts to date or have a life now the manipulation is ramped up and they end up with self harm and other horrible threats.
You sound like a lovely mum, take all the help offered and don't let her have the power. We messed up there, she knew we were a little scared of her and what she could say and it's not ended well for us, we thought we were doing the right thing by almost pandering to it and keeping things calm. In reality we enabled the behaviour and should have taken back control a long time ago.
We too had allegations against teachers at one point of neglecting her.

If this person is ever in my house again there will be cameras up.

I’m so sorry to hear what you are going through @IWantOut29
You are probably feeling a whole wave of emotions now that the tension is gone and you could finally relax again. I don’t want to be cruel when I say this though:
This is not the end of this problem and you need professional support 100%, not just your daughter. She will lie again. There is a pervasive pattern to her behaviour and she will default to lies and attention seeking behaviour until she finds a way to deal with her negative emotions. You need to protect yourself and your DS here, not just your DD. I understand that you want to reassure her that there won’t be consequences because you are relieved that she finally admitted the truth, but you will just be sugarcoating the problem. There will be consequences, absolutely. There will be consequences in school and she simply won’t be believed. There will be consequences with friends and any type of relationship because she will not be believed and because parents won’t want their children to be friends with her, etc etc.
Make it clear to her that there will be consequences when she lies, and make sure that you will follow through with this.

It’s her comment about holding control that stood out for me and which is concerning.

I had some similar problems with my DS at the time. He lied, manipulated, and caused a lot of harm to others (not just me). He was subsequently diagnosed with a personality disorder and looking back I made so many mistakes by trying to be nice and gentle. In my son’s case there was almost certainly a genetic element to it so please consider if you have other people in your family that displayed concerning behaviour like this.

Two clear things
You say she wouldn't say it abput your mum and that you've never properly told her off for it, and the dominance point. She desperately needs string boundaries from you. She needs to know you know she us lying and find it appalling, how wrong this is, the consequences it has brought. You are walking on eggshells around her and it's very confusing for her. Why won't mum tell me off? Why is she letting me cause this trouble?

Second, related, is the dv. Are you or her scared she's like her dad? Do you try to keep on the right side of her because she has some similar traits like facial expressions? Perhaps subconsciously. She's trying to exert control possibly due to past experiences.

Sorry, CAUSAL not casual!

Absolutely.

Shame is a terrible emotion. Maybe posters mean guilt rather than shame but shaming a child has deep seated, often lifelong, and very negative consequences. No one should be shamed. However, in this situation, guilt is not likely to be useful either.

This sounds so tough - my dd has done some similar things, although not as severe lies.

You say you're on the ND pathway - I would also ask about starting the process for an EHCP, it sounds like your DD is very unhappy at school and it's possible that she'll struggle more at secondary. ASD girls tend to fall apart around puberty and you may have school refusal and either need a lot of intervention in secondary or even a special school. I know this sounds dramatic - but I wish we'd taken more notice of warning signs with my daughter when she was 9

Yes, very – it's a big part of my job/job training! Strongly disagree with your blanket statement for many reasons:

1. It's a commonly held myth that autistic people totally lack empathy, theory of mind, etc.

There is indeed some evidence for this, which must be taken into consideration, but the blanket belief is much exaggerated and stemming from an outdated "Other-ing" approach by scientific studies of the 70s-00s.

2. Ultimately, while society itself must also become more inclusive, we want autistic children/people to be able to function in wider society & life.

The most common example in my workplace is teaching high-functioning, intelligent boys with autism not to molest or sexually assault Mummy, female teachers, their classmates (if they're ready for merged classes) or other females in public.

They don't get a free pass to keep hurting someone, OR to behave in ways that potentially damage themselves and their own lives. It is not good to lie to put Mummy in jail, as this will hurt both Mummy and themselves.

As someone whose institution has had quite a few police visits, there are GENUINELY real world consequences for things. While we don't want to scare our charges unnecessarily, we want to protect and inform them at a level they are capable of responding to. OP's daughter's words about the power she holds suggests she is capable of cognitively understanding casual relationships at least.

Again, there are appropriate ways to teach this (eg not ABA IMHO).

3. We also provide the support they need (eg if having meltdown, or behaving vindictively or violently) BUT there's a huge difference between unconditional support/safe space & positive reinforcement for undesirable behaviour.

For my boys who like to randomly grab my boobies, we give them stress balls and other stim toys.

We also often kindly & gently work with them through their meltdowns or shame/guilt which are not productive emotions in the extreme (so, again, it is a myth that autistic people have no theory of mind, empathy or emotions). But we don't fuss and coo over them every time they molest, as that is strong positive reinforcement.

The daughter obviously already feels horrendous, she doesn’t need to feel worse. And shame is rarely a useful emotion, especially in a young child who doesn’t have the capacity to fully understand herself and her own behaviour, never mind the real world consequences of what she has said.

@IWantOut29 it sounds like your daughter has as yet undiagnosed neuro divergence.

What happens with these children sometimes is that they have an innate feeling of being different, they don’t understand the world around them as much as they appear to. Children tend to internalise their experiences (for example, they frequently blame themselves for things like parents getting divorced) and when how, and what, they feel doesn’t match up with what they are expected to think and feel, they think there is something wrong with them.

Kids can’t think their way through this, they don’t understand WHY they feel bad (and often shame) so they cast about for a solid external reason for it- and if they can’t find one sometimes they manufacture one.

If you were abusing your daughter, people would expect and understand her negative and unhappy feelings- she would have a space for how she feels to be validated, and it would make more sense to her.

Its been horrible for you, anyone would be upset and feel betrayed and be bloody terrified in your situation.

Id focus on getting her thoroughly assessed asap, so you and she can understand where her issues lie, and then some child appropriate therapy (music/play/art etc) so that she can process her feelings.

I agree with this. I thought it was interesting that she said she thought it was expected that she keep up with the lies in the safeguarding meetings, like that was what they wanted to hear from her. A neurodivergent child, prone to black and white thinking, would likely take that standpoint.

There's a huge overlap in the presentation of traumatised children and children who are neurodiverse, and sometimes both are in the mix. Both can make it difficult for children to tell the truth or to understand the potential impact of them lying, want to say what they thing people want to hear etc.

If your CAMHS have a neurodevelopment unit they'll be able to do a full assessment and start to unpick what's underlying it all. At the moment there's a question over whether your DD is neurodiverse and there is known trauma - I'd look at parenting strategies for trauma (therapeutic parenting, PACE) which will also help if your child is neurodiverse because they focus on building relationship secondary to behaviour management and are about safety, security and connection.

The ‘I have the power’ comment is revealing. It’s very manipulative behaviour, with her responding to criticism by deflecting blame onto others and casting herself in the role of victim. Even now she’s getting the ‘poor little girl’ treatment. It makes you wonder how much of the distress she’s showing is actually genuine tbh. The hot/cold treatment of her brother is also concerning.

Based on what you’ve said, and it’s probably because of what she’s witnessed in terms of relationship dynamics, she considers power to be the ability to abuse and victimize. Right now she’s young, but what happens when she’s older and this behaviour has become more sophisticated?

I agree with this. I thought it was interesting that she said she thought it was expected that she keep up with the lies in the safeguarding meetings, like that was what they wanted to hear from her. A neurodivergent child, prone to black and white thinking, would likely take that standpoint.

Same with the comment about having “all the power” in the household now.

As awful as this situation is for OP, at the root of it all is a very sad and miserable child. That’s what started all this. Neurodivergence goes some way to explaining why she’s so unhappy in the first place, and why she started making these bizarre allegations in the first place.

She kept looking at me for reassurance when they were asking her questions and I had to ask her not to look at me as I was worried the police would take that as she was scared to speak infront of me.

I felt sad reading this. She needs you to be her safe person @IWantOut29. She knows she’s in over her head. I think you need to start prioritising giving your daughter the love, reassurance and security she needs in these situations, instead of worrying that the police are going to cart you off, because they aren’t.

@wowokay are you familiar with autism? An autistic child will not know that lies have an emotional impact on other humans or that they have real consequences. If anyone tells her Mummy might go to jail, especially because of her, she will be traumatised for life. She will not ‘hear’ or process that information in the way you intend it to. That is not the right approach for dealing with an autistic child. Autism is complex and requires careful and sensitive support. The OP has done a brilliant job of parenting.

Thank you to the people who are sharing stories about why some autistic people lie so much. I have a work colleague who lies like it's going out of fashion, to the point where I have a mental filter now when she talks to me that flags around 50% immediately as "definitely lies" and around 30% as "proceed with caution, this may be lies". She is also excessively controlling. It is EXHAUSTING and relentless. This thread is helping me to understand a bit more why she is like that. It makes sense to me that autistic people can seek to control an otherwise overwhelming and confusing world. Heck, most of us humans and animals too seek to have control in the world, it's a built in safety survival method.

OP, does she get enough opportunity to decompress and unmask, each day? I would be careful to position it as something entirely seperate from the lies, but maybe adding in time and resources after school each day for her to either get sensory stuff or avoid it (depending on if she is over- or under-stimated), could help to stabilise her overall? You can look in the Baker Ross catalogue online for SEN/sensory toys and equipment for ideas - if she needs less stimulation maybe a blackout tent and silence, if she needs more (I think this is less likely) a selection of stimming gadgets and toys may suit her, or pillow punching, rough and tumble, play on outside play equipment etc.

Thanks @Grimchmas this is why I had to post something positive for OP. I tried to keep my post short but it wasn't, but I could have said so much more on our situation.
I never thought we would be where we are now. Don't get my wrong my son's needs are really difficult to manage still, he needs help with everything, but I'm no longer doing it alone or being blamed and accused.

I was in a position where I really did believe I was going to lose him on the lies of others. There is a light at the end of the tunnel.

@IWantOut29 you really need to push for help for your daughter. We started with the Psychotherapist as CAMHS wanted to go down the route of it being family related. Within minutes we were told they could help us as we didn't fit their remit. The Psychiatrist and recently educational psychologist have been eye opening for us. It took a while for the Psychiatrist to even scratch the surface of my son's trauma from school and he will he working with them for a long time. Get your DD help as soon as you can

Could you offer to dress her and treat her like a baby/ younger child so she feels love if she sees this is what love looks like? Mine still wants me to put her 'in the love basket' at times ( cross my legs and sit her in it and dress her. It is close contact and reminds them of being babies.

@IWantOut29 it's a very common thing for children who have experienced trauma to tell lies. My DD is adopted and has told similar lies - because of her background social work have taken a different path with us rather than going down a child protection process but it's still very difficult.

I'm thinking that she's been more affected by domestic abuse than anyone has realised - have any of her disclosures mirrored things that might have happened when you were with your ex? Not necessarily tracking exactly but thinking about how she would have understood things when she was smaller? The way kids experience trauma and remember trauma is complicated because of their very natural trauma responses which mix up memories and can be very scary.

I'd be looking for some support for her and your son that specialised in trauma. I'd also at home help her to understand what she might have seen, heard or been aware of - have you ever spoken to her about your relationship with your ex, and having to flee DV?

My DD was making allegations that her dad had hurt her (he hadn't, I was with them at each time the incidents were alleged to have taken place). Part of it was very mixed up memories of what had happened in her early years, part of it was the attention that came from other services being involved, part of it was recreating the feelings she had at particular times in her life. It's hard but if you understand how children react to trauma, her lying makes complete sense.

In saying that, I ended up having some very direct conversations with my daughter about what she was doing and the potential impact (she might be moved to another family, her brother might be removed too, I would lose my job (social worker), dad would be asked to leave home). We looked for therapy for her - she's doing therapeutic life story work which has made a huge different, because she's learning how to make sense of the things she's experienced. There are lots of resources online that are worth looking at - google trauma children lying and you'll see loads of pages that explain the links and give good ideas on how to deal with it.

@wowokay same

.

You’ve had some helpful insight and advice from @SpidersAreShitheads and @HereWeGo22

Absolutely ignore offering advice that is irrelevant and harmful for a neurodiverse child. Posters are putting too much emphasis on the dominance aspect as if she’s some 9 year old sociopath. She’s not. She’s an ASD/AuADHD child who needs help to learn to soothe and regulate herself and she will not have theory of mind. The latter is the reason she’s unaware of the impact of her lies. It’s certainly not intended to hurt you.

She can be helped to better understand how others may interpret her actions but you will also have to be careful how you do this as she will take what you say very literally. There’s lots of resources now on how ASD is expressed in girls/women that are really very helpful. Best of luck @IWantOut29 as it’s not easy but you’ve done a brilliant job at parenting under incredible stress.

Yes definitely believe in specialist approach, and the message has to be delivered in a suitable way. But just to clarify I wasn't going for "shock factor", but realistically letting her know before she really messes her own life up by turning herself into an orphan.

I think first and foremost she should be working with people who understand her unique situation (ASD + DV trauma).

I have no idea what is the best way to deal with it all, but some of the advice on here (not yours specifically) frightens me because it could do so much more harm to a girl who is struggling. I have no idea if somebody else telling her that she won't have a mummy is the best thing for her or not but I think before anything like this is done, and expert needs to be consulted.

Best wishes OP. Do you have help from ASD specialists? I have a young relative who likely has ASD. She will make up things and just sit and stare as the lies are acted upon. It is really concerning to be around. It is very different from the usual things kids come out with. Please protect your son as much as possible. He needs to know it is not his fault and have strategies. Growing up with a sibling with ASD can be frightening and lonely.

One thing that struck me is that it seems that the lying happens when she’s overwhelmed in the school meetings. Could you help her find a way to express that she is feeling overwhelmed and that is a better way of getting what she needs? I think focusing on what would be a more appropriate response might help. She does need to know how serious the lying is but she needs an alternative way of communicating.

@HereWeGo22 what an incredibly harrowing time you and your son have had. I'm SO pleased to read that things are getting better now. Xxx