Are my kids naughty or normal

I know hind sights 20/20, but it would have been better to never have allowed behaviour that has the potential to be a problem in the first place. Of course it's fun to let a three year scan shopping when it's quiet and you've time. But do it once and they want to do it always. Same with getting down from the table in resturants. So I'd say unless you're confident you're always going to be OK with it, save the occasional concessions until they're old enough to understand why it's only sometimes OK and use a hard no otherwise. They'll be some initial tantrums but they learn eventually.

I know it sounds a bit weird but I speak from my own experience. Some kids are silenced into behaving “well” and it can sometimes be a sign to look out for in kids. I suppose I mean more withdrawn than placid - which some have pointed out can be a character trait.

Boggles the mind doesn't it

@Haretodayswantomorrow I had no idea the battle they were facing if they’d spawned a preprogrammed wild one

This made me laugh so much! My firstborn (a girl) was extremely placid and imaginative and could make a plaything out of anything. Perfect child. Second -born was classic ADHD. I remember the loneliness and the judgementalism. Yes, I too spawned a preprogrammed wild one.

We managed by me doing the supermarket shopping while DH looked after the kids after work or at the weekend. We didn't go to cafes or restaurants until DS was older and then we started with McDs and gradually worked up to a very quick-cook café where they had benches and a table in front and he would be wedged in, unable to move - but because the food came quickly, there was little time to be bored. And no lingering afterwards. He didn't want tabletop toys or colouring and if there had been screens, I'd have had no compunction about using them as long as they were on silent or he wore headphones.

You have two close in age and my heart absolutely goes out to you. Yes take on board all the positive and practical comments and ignore the ones from Smug Parents. Our situation got so bad, I asked to be referred to Family Therapy and it was an absolute life-changer as I learned better techniques, such as an old-fashioned star chart which helped. Feeling in control and having a Plan was brilliant.

You are asking for advice now - reaching out to parents who should be supporting you with compassion, because it's HARD

They do sound badly behaved yes. Why on earth would you let them run around a restaurant? That’s just ignorant. If they can’t behave, and you can’t parent, then leave. Go be feral in your own home and stop ruining other peoples day!

I think you need to separate out appropriate behaviour for the age and a nearly 4 year old will know not to run around a restaurant. I think there needs to be consequences for both.

Are signs of trauma the new excuse for having badly behaved children?

Are you saying you've wondered if other people's well behaved children are showing signs of trauma?

Apologies if I got that wrong, but your reply was in response to @Ramalangadingdong who said it can be a sign of trauma?

But 'chasing after pigeons and refusing to come back', and 'running loops around the restaurant cackling at the top of their lungs', until they get screen time is ok because they're 'free'

Jesus.

Straps in high chairs/buggies are there to stop them from slipping/falling out and injuring themselves, they are not a straight jacket/restraining device, and dc should still be closely supervised/not left alone while in a highchair, buggy. As soon as I saw ds's hands going towards the clip I distracted/diverted him so he never had the opportunity to learn to unclip it. I also made a point of never showing him when I did it.

Car seats are harder to supervise for obvious reasons and may need additional devices/different seat which is harder to unclip if a child becomes too curious about unclipping them.

You need to decide what's more important, creating firm boundaries and discipline and thus an easier time down the line, or a coffee with your mate but your kids never really learning there are consequences to their behaviour.

It is normal for some children, lots to do with personality but how you handle it is the most important thing

Sounds normal to me.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect small children to traipse round shops for hours ( obviously it's sometimes necessary, but needs to be kept to less than hour) or to sit still over leisurely meals in restaurants. It's not fun for them or pleasant for the parents, I don't get why people do it. A 30- minute wait for food can seem like hours to a small person, and hanging around chatting is not fun for most of them, and you can find yourself paying close on a hundred pounds for a meal which no-one has enjoyed.
Shopping is not a leisure activity for young children, especially if they are not involved. IME the bigger the shop, the worse it is for kids. They see a sea of legs, it's too hot, and crowds make it worse.
I'd avoid restaurants and shops as much as possible till they are older. Go without them, find alternatives ( takeaways, picnics) but don't put yourself or them through it. If you have to, keep it really short.

Placidness (placidity?) isn’t necessarily a good sign in children by the way. In some kids it is a sign of trauma. Your kids sound normal (and free!)

I've never used screen time while out and about . If they refused to stop running around we left.

If they refused to hold hands or tried to run off while out they'd have been made to put on a wrist strap/put in the buggy .
One of mine really liked shopping, the orhers not so much! Id only take them if i was nipping in for a few bits , I don't miss the toddler/pre school years

Yes it’s normal behaviour OP, but how you react and what you now say and teach them here is so important. You teach them it’s not kind to scare/chase birds. Teach them to be compassionate. Talk to them calmly about how it’s not good manners to do xy and z. I have sons too so I get it, they are full on. When my eldest was almost 2 he tried running around a restaurant but I had to teach him that no, that is no acceptable. I had to take him outside in the end. He’s now 11 and an utter sweetheart. My youngest has sen so it’s been harder but he understands right from wrong (mostly) as I have worked incredibly hard with him too. You’re doing a great job, it’s bloody hard work 💐

Another thing 😂
Try not to think of right or wrong

They aren't deliberately being naughty, they just need to learn when/ where it's OK to run/ where to walk/ sit
Where to speak/ when to sssshhh

It then becomes teaching them rather than discipline
You do have to enforce it but firmly and consistently.
It's much better for children to have clear, safe boundaries than be bribed into being quiet.
That's for church and planes only 😂

I feel it is hard, my well behaved pre teens were once toddlers and I stopped going to restaurants for ages, they didn't have the patience to sit once my oldest got past 18m, when they got to 3 and 5 I could walk into town with them and friends and they would happily sit and eat nicely, a kids meal mind nothing fancy and we had to eat quickly. They still get bored at restaurants now though, they're super active kids. I didn't let them have screens at that age but I can see the merit of using them if it keeps them still and you need to be there. I think reinforcing expectations regularly is the key and I have left places because of behaviour. I know it says it spoils your day too but that's how they learn and as the adult we can cope with it so do try it if the behaviour is unsafe like what you describe at the restaurant.

My children were raised before screen time was an option. We had a very strict rule that when we were in pubs /restaurants they had to behave and not spoil other peoples fun. We kept them occupied with colouring, books and various silly word games. In 10 years of taking under fives out I only had to follow through on the threat of 'if you are noisy we will have to go home' once.

As you quite rightly say @Jingledog taking him home spoiled things for me as much as it did for him but it had to be done. It was a big shock to him. We both cried on the way home and the meals we ordered had to be paid for even though we weren't there to eat them but it was a lesson learned. He knew I meant what I said and he was never disruptive at a meal again.

For the older one, manage his expectations by explaining beforehand what will be happening. Make sure you don’t make promises you can’t keep, eg about him helping you do every task. Keep it simple and make your expectations clear, eg “We are going to meet Auntie Jane for lunch. I expect you to sit on your chair. I am taking a book/whatever for you to look at. If you behave properly by sitting on the chair and not making a noise, we’ll stop by the park on the way home/whatever. Remember - in the restaurant you need to stay in your seat and not make noise”

You say you don’t want to “scare” them, but you don’t have to. Speak calmly but firmly. There’s no need to raise your voice. It sounds like they’ve got away with this behaviour or had it rewarded and that’s a big part of the problem. It’s your job as a parent to train them about how to behave in public. Some children are easier than others, but you can still do it. I second a wrist rein and/or buggy. One of my DC was in a buggy until 4 whereas the other was only in it till 2.5yrs. Adapt your method to the child, but you need to say it and mean it.

Completely agree with you @TheresaCrowd. Absolutely disgusting ageism being spouted.

Some kids are just like this. Ds1 was always calm and chilled wherever he was. Ds2 was a totally different child! I basically didn’t take him shopping or anywhere inside from when he was 18 months to well past 4! He just couldn’t sit still, and just found it so frustrating to not be able to run around. He’s now 15, and the most laid back teen imaginable.

Hang in there OP, it’s not your parenting, it’s just that some toddlers need more exercise than others!

I bet her kids act similarly at other times. Toddlers can have good and bad days.

Just try to remain calm and be consistent with consequences.

My 4yo goes through phases of having to help (tap credit card, pack groceries etc) when out and it can be trying!! There's often a bit of grumpiness and tears if he can't do everything he wants because I hurry him along.

Difficult to say without witnessing them all the time

Could Be
Lack of boundary's
Bad day
Illness
Growth spurt
Personality of child
Undiagnosed Adhd or asd
Amongst other issues

When
Mine were really naughty I started removing them from the situation but later I found out dd is autistic but we didn't know till late teens so she had many epic toddler trantrums I probably in hindsight dealt with badly.

However we know now and are healing.