To vaccinate newborn or not

Here's a fantastic cartoon that summarises the situation, OP.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/darryltoon/4618150003/

It sounds like you are concerned about what is in the vaccines and having them injected into your baby?

have you researched what is in the drugs used to treat children in ICU who have developed meningitis/measles… it might be worth looking at them and considering if you would be happy with these drugs being used to save your babies life.

Just ask yourself, how would you feel if you chose not to vaccinate and your child caught one of those easily preventable diseases and died? How would that make you feel? Could you live with that? I know I couldn't.

Protect your baby, vaccines literally save lives OP. Getting hung up on "bullying" by the NHS chasing people to vaccinate is nothing in comparison to losing a child.

Also, some children can't get vaccinated for health reasons and the only way to protect those children is to increase herd immunity by vaccinating children that can be vaccinated.

It's not worth rolling the dice.

My parents missed a lot of my childhood vaccinations (through circumstances not any ideology) and I was hit hard by many preventable ones and now have a lifelong autoimmune disease. I'm bringing my 12 month old for her 1 year vaccinations at the end of the month.

Hi OP - you sound like a really caring mum, kudos to you. My story is that DD1 was born during the Andrew Wakefield MMR scandal, and I was very conflicted. It no longer seemed so clear to me that vaccinating was the right thing to do. Luckily my health visitor at the time had been a neonatal nurse before becoming a HV, and told me that the cases of measles she had witnessed really worried her. This was for two reasons:

1. The severity of the cases she had seen
2. The fact that her own daughter was allergic to egg, and therefore unable to have the vaccine. She was fearful that her daughter would be further at risk due to the likelihood of lower vaccination rates at the time of the report.

She told me this in response to my question as to whether she recommended vaccination in a non-judgmental way, and did not pressure at all. I decided to go ahead with vaccination for my children.

I now work as a HCP supporting a school aged immunisation team. All the nurses on the team are very happy to talk things through with parents and young people, and explain about reasons for vaccination schedule, contra-indications etcetera with absolutely no pressure to accept vaccination. You might find that your local team could answer any questions you have.

My daughter caught measles not long after her first MMR vaccine. She was incredibly poorly. If she had not had the first vaccine and had no immunity at all then we could have lost her.
Vaccines save lives. I wouldn't think twice about vaccinating my newborn for this reason.

Vaccinate your child.

And I say that as one of the unlucky few to have life-changing side effects from a Covid jab.

Hi OP

I got pulled into a lot of antivax stuff with my first DC. It really alarmed/worried me because before having children, I'd never heard anything bad about vaccines ever, I had only heard of them as this wondrous lifesaving thing. So being suddenly told that they could harm my baby was very worrying and it seemed that the more I "looked into it" the more scary stuff I found. (and of course feeling a bit anxious about my child having to have injections which would hurt - it's totally normal and natural to feel worried about this by the way).

I will cut a long story short and say that after some initial alarm/anxiety and worry I started to notice indiscrepancies and odd things about what people were saying in terms of the dangers of vaccination.

One thing which made me stop and question them was when someone encouraged me to print out a letter for the nurse/GP to sign inviting them to take "full responsibility" for any side effects of the vaccine. I realised immediately that nobody would sign such a document and nor would I expect them to. That's when I realised that the antivaxxers were protraying this idea of a totally 100% risk free vaccine - which does not exist. Everything has a risk. Feeding your baby food has a risk of an allergic reaction. Having your child undergo surgery has a risk. Calpol has a risk. Teething gel has a risk. Avoiding vaccines carries a risk. In fact, vaccines are some of the healthcare with the highest hurdles to jump to prove that they have a low incidence of side effects, specifically because they are given to healthy people. When you have surgery then it's usually to correct some problem that is already happening so we accept some side effects and risk as a trade off for that. When we take medicine like antibiotics again this is to correct something so we accept some side effects as a trade off. Vaccinations are given to healthy people and the amount of side effect people will tolerate is extremely low. And contrary to what the antivaxxers say, the medical profession are fully aware of and talk about the potential side effects, they will even advise if there is anything you need to watch out for - but the serious side effects, if they happen, typically happen immediately which is why you wait a short time in the GP surgery after a vaccination (and you can ask to wait longer if you are feeling anxious). The antivax crowd made it sound like "big pharma" are forever pushing more and more vaccines and want to give them unnecessarily - but if that was true, why are the covid vaccines now being phased out? Why have they phased out TB, and smallpox? They are also planning to take Polio off the schedule (except that it has currently unfortunately been halted in the progress towards eradicating the disease). "They" don't want to give unnecessary vaccinations - only the ones for which there is a proven benefit where the benefits outweigh the risks. And believe me, the balance required for this is very high.

Another thing which made me stop and question is the idea that vaccines contain "dangerous" ingredients, like heavy metals. But I also knew that for example the advice during pregnancy is to eat no more than 4 cans of tuna per week because of the mercury. So if it is safe to eat up to 4 cans, then there is a safe level of mercury to consume and an unsafe level. I realised that vaccines must contain absolutely miniscule amounts, and I'm willing to make a trade off for tuna just because I like the taste of tuna. But a vaccine actually protects my child from a dangerous disease - the trade off is extremely clear. Why not, if concerned about heavy metals, look at prioritising reducing other, less useful sources in order to free up some capacity to cope with the very miniscule amounts in this very useful medical intervention.

The antivax crowd are quite insistent that vaccines "don't work" and it's all just a con or a money making scheme by big pharma. There were all kinds of graphs thrown around which seem to show that drops in various diseases were caused by something else and not the vaccine - but there is an extremely clear and very very common example that you can see - chicken pox! In the UK, not a standard vaccine given, and it goes around every single school and nursery several times a year and almost every child gets it at some point, to the point it's unusual if you haven't had it and people even want their child to yet it young to "get it over with". In other developed countries, children get it generally with the MMR and nobody gets chicken pox. Honestly. Nobody. I live in Germany now, I have been here for ten years and I have come across I think one case of chicken pox.

Lastly they spread a lot of info about how the diseases that vaccines protect against are not that harmful - unfortunately this is a lie. While it's true that if your child catches measles, the chances are that on balance they will likely be fine, the problem with measles is not so much the risk to your child personally, the problem is that measles is extremely contagious, so when it is allowed to run freely through populations, vast vast numbers of people catch it and that means that a great number of them, even though a small proportion (this can be the same thing - think about 1% of 3,000,000 people - that's 30,000 people) will suffer severe, permanent side effects or even die. The burden being greater on the portions of the population who are more vulnerable - the sick, the elderly, the very young, those with poor housing conditions, those with predisposed genetic tendencies etc.

Unfortunately there are some families who are living in limbo with rare, undiagnosable conditions (generally genetic or autoimmune disorders) that science can't provide a nice, easy answer to. Antivaxxers have a simple and convincing argument - which is exactly what should alert you to the fact that it's not the right one, as well as all the many, many, studies and huge amount of evidence showing that autism, for example, is not caused by vaccines (and some other things). This is the worst part IMO. Selling answers to distressed people is immoral and cruel. Using them as a vehicle to spread distrust is despicable.

At the time I decided to vaccinate my eldest (several months behind schedule) I was still not convinced I was doing the right thing, but I felt that the risk was probably about the same from vaccinating as it was if I just let him go about in the world considering that he would probably not encounter the dieases anyway. The reason that I made the decision to vaccinate was actually because I thought, on balance, if the two options were probably the same then it made sense to go the way most people go because that way doctors would be more familiar with the risks we were taking, whereas if he ever had got a vaccine-preventable disease, doctors today would be unfamiliar with those and that might pose a problem in itself. I was very anxious when the vaccines were being given and for a few months afterwards in case any side effects showed up (they didn't).

Fifteen years later I think I was wrong even then and I was taking a much, much, much smaller risk than I thought at the time in vaccinating him. I have vaccinated my younger children with no worries. The more I learn about where antivax rumours come from, the more I understand why they are so alarming and why they are also not to be trusted. I would recommend speaking to your doctor or nurse about your specific worries if you can, as they can often explain why the common antivax myths don't make sense to worry about.

There are quite a few people speaking out who have previously been hoodwinked by the antivax community now - I will send some links as I think it's interesting to hear what people say who used to be in this sphere and why they came out of it.

The MMR vaccine is administered as two doses, each of 0.5ml. If you try and measure 0.5ml using an oral syringe (such as those that come with the calpol bottle) you will see what an incredibly tiny amount it is.

The part of the vaccine which acts to protect you is the weakened form of the disease - e.g microscopic particles. You don’t need a ‘larger dose’ of microscopic particles because you have a larger body.

Drugs like painkillers work in a completely different way to vaccines. You’re comparing apples to motorbikes and suggesting it’s sinister that they’re not used the same way.

The MMR is recommended by the WHO and all leading health authorities

I think part of the problem with people understanding the need to vaccines these days, is the diseases they prevent against are held at bay because of vaccinations. So it almost doesn't seem necessary. Why should I vaccinate against polio when it no longer exists? It's just it these diseases do exist - the vaccines keep them at bay. If we all stopped vaccinating then they would come back (See measles).

I heard someone once explaining that they worked with African refugees, and these people were from places where these diseases wiped out whole villages. They couldn't believe when they got here that they could get their kids vaccinated for those same diseases so simply. None of those people would refuse and they saw first hand the devastation they cause.

What are you looking for? And why would you trust ransoms on here over the NHS?

This.

I do get it media was full of Anti MMR stuff when ours were due - and we tend to be pro vaccination but were worried. So we read round the subject in science journals and papers - it was a large study - I think Japan can't remember - it was clear best thing to do was have the MMR vaccinations so we did and it was done and dusted.

Though I do remember asking for second child at appointment - can't remember what but something to do with him specifically - and I'd already said he was having it and instead of answering my question Nurse launched in the NHS spiel - I did politely ask wtf and insist on answer about my child ( he had few medical issues ) and vaccine. The experience did make me feel bit like sausage in factory though rather than listen to.

No all vaccine are the same - childhood one are well established and researched given to millions of children worldwide - covid one were done bit quicker and had new techniques in them even then I think adverse reactions have still been rare - and with anything it's a risk benefit and these childhood illnesses are killers and can cause lasting profound problems even with survival.

I'm glad we have vaccines and never regretted my kids having them.

Vaccines save lives.
Anyone who doesn't vaccinate shld hang their heads in shame. Its such a fucking privilege. How dare you even consider not.

If you decide not to vaccinate and your child gets one of those diseases, who will you take them to? Your GP/NHS or the person on the internet who wrote the anti-vax article?
Because if it's the GP/NHS who you would trust to treat the disease, trust them to know the best way to prevent it - the vaccinations they recommend.

Unless you plan to raise your child in a sterile bubble their immune system will encounter lots of viruses, some of which can be mitigated by vaccines some can't yet. The childhood vaccines are well established and side effects short-lived. The diseases can be serious and potentially fatal or life changing.

The MMR protects against rubella....it's really important especially for girls to be vaccinated against this. When they get older and go on to have their own children, rubella can be extremely dangerous during pregnancy

I think YABU but I totally get where you are coming from. I am very pro vaccine and will take anything that’s offered for both my kids and I if it means we can prevent any sort of lurg. That being said I don’t think there is one vaccine that my kids have had that I haven’t thought twice about. I think that is just normal. Our children are so precious it would be mad just to go and blindly have them jabbed with things and not worry that they might be that one kid that reacts or that something might happen. I always tell myself that the NHS advice to vaccinate is based on overwhelming evidence that experts have reviewed.
I also think asking Mnet for medical advice isn’t the best. Maybe worth a chat with HV who I am sure have had to reassure plenty of parents on this sort of thing and will be able to point you in a better direction of what to research/look at.

This.

I have an immunosuppressed dd, even with the vaccines something as simple as flu could kill her. Without the vaccine the risk increases a thousand fold.

Why would you not do everything possible to protect your child?

The only statistic I needed is that our children are less likely to die if vaccinated.

We're so lucky to live in a country where the health service take an active roll in dealing with preventable childhood diseases.

The whole 'I don't like being told what to do with my/my child's body' angle completely sidelines how effective vaccines have been in this country at making babies safer.

I'd also remind you the NHS is not giving Covid vaccinations to anyone except the vulnerable and the over-65s now, despite the fact it's still rampant. They only give out vaccinations when it's essential.

The problem is you're asking questions that make no sense.

It's like... Let remove vaccines and replace them with seatbelts and baby seats cars.

You're questioning whether you should put your child in a baby in a car seat.when driving. Every bit of research shows that baby is far safer strapped into that rear facing car seat.

And now your looking for research to help you decide if this is actually the case, because you read about one person who put their kids in forward facing seats, and a couple of people said "well, I put my babies forward facing,and they were fine!X and one person who says"I just held my baby in my Arms, and she never got hurt " and all your googling isn't supporting the view you're trying to find.

Why can't you find it? Because decades of research across the world shows that, your baby is safest in.a securely and correctly fitted rear facing car seat.

You'll never find any actual credible evidence to say "out your baby on your lap/forward face your baby " because there is none.

Just the same with vaccines. Because it's absolutely the right thing to do.

A small number of people suffered serious side effects from the covid vaccines. A much, much larger number of people suffered serious effects from covid.

No vaccine is guaranteed 100% safe but the risks of the vaccine are minimal and are massively lower than the risks of having the disease.

Fwiw I have had all my covid vaccines (healthcare worker) and I also paid privately for the chickenpox vaccine for my child in addition to the vaccinations given on the NHS.

Agreed its scientific research that proves this and that is why NHS explains this is the recommendation

Also don’t trust anyone who uses the phrase “big pharma” no serious informed person calls it that lmao. It’s your red flag that indicates a conspiracy theory.

The pharmaceutical industry is not perfect but a lot of the criticism is just over-exaggerated, over-generalised or just plain ignorant.

For every person (very possibly with pre-existing health conidtions that are really the issue) claimign the Covid vaccination damaged them, I refer you to the woman I know who was very severely brain damaged as a 6 yr old as a result of measles. She had a (non-serious) condition which meant she couldn't have the MMR so was reliant on herd immunity. Some parents didn't get their children the MMR based on false science and stupid claims on the internet, so they fell ill, this girl caught the disease and it has destroyed not only her life but the lives of her parents and siblings, who've effectively had to become full-time carers. You don't want this to happen to your child, or to another child. These diseases are serious, that's why vaccines were invented.

Did you Google the effects of diseases that the vaccines protect against?