To vaccinate newborn or not

Vaccines aren't really that much of a money making exercise, apart from in as much as we need to pay pharmaceutical companies for any type of drug because of the way we've set up our society so it's an industry not a public good.

Won't someone think of the iron lung and leg brace companies that lost out when polio vaccination really kicked in?

What about sales of antimicrobials to treat the infections that kill and permanently damage when babies and young children contract vaccine-preventable diseases? These are a constant money spinner because of resistance so they're always trying to come up with new ones?

It's always a conundrum how Big Pharma are milking us dry by selling us vaccines to prevent disease, but also involved in suppressing the development of a Cure for Cancer [TM] to sell us chemotherapy - the same people often appear to believe both.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jcvi-recommends-chickenpox-vaccine-in-childhood-immunisation-programme

I researched immunisations for my dissertation at university. I can't remember the statistics exactly but there is a tiny tiny risk of your child having complications from a vaccine. The chance of your child having complications from one of the preventable diseases you can be vaccinated against is much much higher.

but there is an extremely clear and very very common example that you can see - chicken pox! In the UK, not a standard vaccine given, and it goes around every single school and nursery several times a year and almost every child gets it at some point, to the point it's unusual if you haven't had it and people even want their child to yet it young to "get it over with". In other developed countries, children get it generally with the MMR and nobody gets chicken pox. Honestly. Nobody. I live in Germany now, I have been here for ten years and I have come across I think one case of chicken pox.

This is a really good example - I did look at paying to get it but money was tight and DH said it a common illness. Older two both had it - DS eczema made it much worse for him something I wasn't aware it could do so of prior to him getting it- he was miserable. Though DD2 never had it - MIL never had any childhood illness at all either - so don't know if she'll get it later which would be much worse or if she's like MIL.

A girl at toddler group was actually hospitalized with it - last in large family to get it - literally everywhere - I didn't know that could happen.

I really wish they'd just put in on the NHS vaccination list - UK has been very late doing so.

My eldest son was very allergic to egg. His first MMR was delayed due to this, so I relied on herd immunity until he had it in hospital under medical care.

I also may, or may not, we don't know, have had a serious complication from the Covid vaccine. My 3rd covid vaccine probably (it's a long complicated story!). I have still gone on to have my 4th and 5th vaccines.

I’m currently doing a medically related PhD but I wouldn’t do my own analysis of the research about vaccinations. You don’t know how else to research this because this isn’t your area of expertise.

This is exactly why we have public health experts, who do have this expertise and experience, to analyse the research and recommend a programme of vaccinations along with guidance for any individuals that may need something different to the usual vaccination programme (for example due to allergies or complicated health needs).

The information you’re given about childhood vaccinations is based on this expertise and experience that. We as individuals are not going to find something new and reliable that hasn’t already been analysed during the decision making.

There are so many things that aren’t clear when we’re raising children and we do need to read about and make a decision, but this isn’t a situation where that is helpful. It’s understandable though that you feel this way in this age where we’re given access to so much information online and where you want the right thing for your child.

Whatever. But vaccines work and save lives. End of.

If you really want facts on this issue, take a walk in any old cemetery and look at the dates on the gravestones. Pay attention to how many of them are graves of babies and young children.

I remember I saw a gravestone that really told a story in the birth and death years it marked. It was a 19th century family of 7, parents + 5 children. One of the children died as a baby. Three others had died at a young age in the same year, likely during an epidemic. The fifth lived to be a teen and died in the same year as their father, likely during another epidemic. Only the mother survived into her 60s, without them. That family lingered in my mind for a long time.

That was the reality of having children, before the existence of modern medicine and vaccines against diseases that were rampant child-killers: most women knew what it was like to bury a baby. There were areas in Victorian London where up to 40-50% of children died before age 5. In some communities it was so bad that people would not name their babies before they'd survived smallpox, because what was the point of investing emotionally before then? It wasn't just something ordinary people suffered, either. King Henry VIII had 11-12 children out of which only 2 reached adulthood and 2 died as teens, the rest perished in infancy. Queen Anne had 17 pregnancies and none of her children survived.

Do you want to go back in time? People who don't vaccinate their children reduce population immunity and contribute to the likelihood of old-time diseases making a comeback.

Anybody in complete denial that health agencies and bodies can be biased or just plain incorrect; the world health organisation has said recently in the FIRST instance of a child believing they are trans, puberty blockers should be given to the child. In their words (roughly) puberty blockers are the "least harmful" option as they mean the child progresses neither to adult male or adult female and can then make a decision later on. So the WHO is actively pushing puberty blockers in the FIRST INSTANCE of a child proclaiming to be trans. And they staye they do no harm , when there is research to show that puberty blockers can affect bone density for life, make the child infertile, and so on. But please, continue to have complete "faith" in science and medical bodies without questioning for yourselves.

The simple answer is that with a medicine like calpol, there is a dose-response curve ie the more you give the bigger the effect. In fact dose-response is usually an S-shaped curve, so it get decreasingly effective while side effects may kick in. A vaccine needs a tiny amount of antigen to kick-start an immune response, and the dose-response curve is very flat ie adults do not need much more than children as the effect is not predominantly determined by your body mass. Think of it as adding oil to an engine (medicine) or turning the ignition with a key (vaccine).

@confusedaboutclothes

I understand your concerns OP even though my DC are all vaccinated (not against covid just the childhood regular ones). You have this box fresh tiny tiny baby and there is something so strange about jabbing them at such a young age.

Some m thing to consider, it is possible to ask to space the vaccines out. So rather than hit them with 9 vaccines in one day, you can ask to space them. If I had my time again I would be doing this. I’m not against them, I just think it’s cruel to hit people (babies or not) with multiple vaccines on one day.

These are the people plus any elderly people whose siblings, cousins and friends "disappeared" that the OP needs to talk to.

I did my PhD and postdoc in vaccine research. I fully vaccinate my children.

Do you have any particular question from your reading online around Covid?

Hi OP, I understand your concerns because of the toxic politics surrounding COVID, and how they were manipulatively rammed down our throats in the name of "Science" (with any dissenting views, immediately denigrated as being -at best - anti-scientific, and - at worst - homicidal). I think there is a lot to collectively learn and reflect on from that bonkers episode in our history.

However, I do think it's important to distinguish between the Covid vaccines and other vaccination programmes. The timelines for the development, field testing and roll out of the covid vaccines was absolutely unprecedented compared to usual practice, and the politics surrounding their introduction was unprecedented as well.

The regular childhood vaccines currently offered on the NHS have been around for decades and decades. They have been proven to be safe and effective in eradicating childhood diseases that cause death and life-changing disability to children around the world. There is no question that their benefits to infants overwhelmingly outweigh any tiny risks: the evidence on this is extensive and clear.

For me it boils down to this…

Pre-vaccines my Great Grandmother had 15 children. She lost 6 of them to measles and 4 to TB. She wasn’t unusual.

I have 6 children. One ended up in hospital with a very high temperature after one vaccine. They got subsequent ones at the hospital just in case. My youngest child has health conditions that mean if she’d been born in my great grandmother’s time she’d have been dead within a few days of birth.

Vaccine injuries do very rarely happen, but vaccines are one of the prime reasons that a young child dying is now a rare event that stuns the whole community around them. In years gone by it was something that happened to most families.

I work in medicines licensing so let me reassure you that there is a comprehensive vetting process for every licensed medicine including vaccines. The National Health agency (independent from pharma companies) review a huge dossier of information including non-clinical (animal models), chemistry and manufacturing and clinical data. This used to be delivered in a truck in 10s of binders back when submission was a paper exercise. The Health agency takes months to review all this data and asks LOTS of questions. These are serious experts of 20+ years experience in their specific field.

I've worked in this area for 24 years and what I can say is I have full faith in the expertise of these guys and their commitment to public health. I vaccinate my kid and I think you should too.

But the man who started that now admits he was wrong so it's a different time with better information but more not vaccinating increasing the chances of children dying or being permanently affected.

YANBU. Op. Its a good thing you question and research and find answers. The research thebookdragon links to is a good start imo.

I find it interesting how when we question the norm we get replies like on here. I too questioned. In my case it was due to not growing up in the UK and the EU country I grew up in did vaccination very differently. So I researches and read up and in the end my children got their vaccinations as they were in the UK. But that was after I had read info and felt I understood why thus was recommended.

YANBU for wanting to understand and no the 1st reply doesn't say it "all" as your question was about how to get information. Information is a good thing.

Again I would read the info thebookdragon linked. I'm pretty sure I know where you will end up going having read it. However, you will go there feeling you understand why.

I personally don’t see any downside to vaccinating

I think you are right to say that the government and therefore the NHS as institutions don’t care about the individual health of your baby. But it is true that vaccinations save lives and should your baby contract a bad case of any of the vaccinated diseases, you will torture yourself that you could have prevented it.

I meant you're questioning thousands of experts and decades of research.

We're obviously not going to agree here, I'm glad other people have more patience than I do and wish you well.

Actually some children mainly babies have the TB vaccination due to where people in their family including grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins come from and visit.

So my DD was vaccinated against TB because of cousins and people married into my family, while other people who I encouraged to get their babies vaccinated had parents, so the baby's grandparents, from abroad who visited.

It isn't along race lines it is where family members they could have contact with live.

Nothing we do is without risk, but the risk of vaccinating is substantially less than the risk of not vaccinating.