To vaccinate newborn or not

This. Maybe this poster didn't have the Covid vaccine and is therefore not aware that the overwhelming majority of the appointment time was taken up with a comprehensive explanation of the possible side effects and risks of adverse consequences.

Is the reality not that even if vaccinations made people more likely to develop skin complaints and asthma (and there is no evidence that they do), the overwhelming majority of people would still choose to vaccinate, because skin complaints and asthma are so much less serious than measles, polio, diptheria etc?

Something must account for the fact that in countries with good vaccine provision almost nobody dies of these illnesses, and in countries with poor vaccine provision, thousands of people do. If you don't believe vaccines are the reason, what do you think does explain this fact?

And if you accept the fact that vaccines do prevent these illnesses, but your issue is that you still believe they might cause asthma, would you still not choose a world with higher instances of asthma than a world with higher instances of measles?

Saying that a study is "looking at differences in vaccine disease only" in "underdeveloped countries" and is therefore not what you want is spectacularly missing the point, because you cant exclude vaccine-preventable diseases from your overall assessment of health. If you want to compare the general health of vaccinated people with the general health of unvaccinated people then you have to include the existence of vaccine-preventable diseases because those diseases exist. It's nonsensical to suggest you can exclude them from a study of public health.

It's like you want a study that says "Here is a comparison of the overall health of vaccinated people vs the overall health of unvaccinated people in an imaginary world where vaccine-preventable diseases don't exist and there is therefore no risk of catching them if you aren't vaccinated". What would be the point of that? That world doesn't exist.

And if you specifically want to compare the health of vaccinated people with that of unvaccinated people in countries with good vaccine provision, you have to account for the fact that unvaccinated people in these countries benefit from herd immunity by virtue of their being surrounded by vaccinated people. That is a major factor your study would need to control for - how could that be done?

No healthcare messaging I have seen about any treatment, vaccine or other treatment describes them as completely safe and effective. Everything is a balance of risk and benefit where the benefits have been assessed as outweighing the risk. Can you highlight information that described the Covid vaccine as completely safe and effective?

Same! Although not a biological scientist but someone with an MRes in Clinical Research who worked in medical ethics and research management for over ten years, including on coronavirus research (2012) and mRNA vaccines. Also had my Covid vaccines as part of a clinical trial months before they were approved. Yet apparently I'm still part of some huge conspiracy to kill off the general population! And if not that I'm a 'sheeeeeeeeeep'

Glad you have found some posts useful and decided to vaccinate.

You have been very clear that you realise google is not a substitute for proper research and were asking for a steer. I have no idea why people have to be so rude. Give opinion, experience and even object politely. Never mind "be kind" just be civil.

Sounds like they haven't got to you too much, just ignore anyone being obnoxious it is a reflection on them not you.

I have some sympathy for those parents whose DC were infants in the mid/late 1990s when the - now thoroughly discredited - Wakefield scandal was going on. Because at that very specific point in time it was not clear that he was wrong. But in the years following, there was a whole mass of new publications which showed that indeed he was.

But that's a very specific and time-limited group. And I hope those affected have gone on to get the vaccines - either when the parents came to trust that Wakefield was badly wrong or the DC deciding for themselves (as they are all adults now).

Yes! Thank you!

OP, I completely agree with you that the government and NHS's response to COVID has been eye opening to me and I've realised the importance of not simply doing what you're told because someone tells you to.

It's made me appraise things like vaccines in a different way.

I think it's so important to have an open discussion and for people not to just shout you down. It's like a reflex for some.

We've been told for a long time that vaccines save lives and the benefits outweigh the risks but we'd be fools to simple nod and agree, without constantly questioning this.

There's no denying that vaccines cause quite unpleasant side effects in young babies and that the diseases we vaccinate against are currently very uncommon (thanks to successful vaccination programmes).

I've just had my 8 week old jabbed but thought much harder about it than I did for my 4 year old.

I was happy that the vaccines were the right choice but I reserve my right to question this and not just jump in line because NHS said so.

If you read the causes of death in the Guinea Bissau report you come to this sad statistic that for measles in an unvaccinated group of 94 children , 9 children, ie nearly ten per cent died of the disease. If nothing else that statistic should put cold shivers down the spine of any parent.

People have been rude to you because you deserve it. Absolutely stupid of you to not do it. You're not cute or clever by thinking you googled and heard some gossip stories and endangering your child's life.

Best post.

Typical first world mentality.

I was born before the measles vaccine and contracted it. I was very ill and there was a point when the doctor told my parents that there was a good chance I'd go blind. Luckily I didn't but my life would have been so different if I had

Your requirements are quite specific! maybe start applying for funding for this?

I'm a senior hospital doctor in a competitive specialty. I've worked in the NHS for 20 years. My undergraduate training was at both Oxford and Cambridge universities. I was made a scholar based on my 1st year exam results at Cambridge. I was well up amongst the cleverest people at my school, and I have always worked hard. I have had specific training in research methodology, in reading journal papers and primary research, and in meta-analysis of the same. I have performed research myself, I have published in good journals, I have presented at international conferences. I tell you these things for context on my thoughts of doing one's own research.
Have i vaccinated my child? Yes. I have done everything that has been recommended by the healthcare professionals, because I respect their advice and the process by which that advice has been derived. I have not 'done my own research', as I know that what I glean will not be as impartial and informed as that from the NHS. Forgive me, but are you sure your research is better than everyone else's?

And yet you were told that the Covid vaccine was completely safe and effective. The cognitive dissonance must be mind-blowing.

These are only looking at underdeveloped countries and they are not long term studies looking at general health over say 20, 30, 40 years i.e differences in skin problems, asthma, cancer etc etc. they are looking at differences in vaccine disease only. I want to see studies looking at the UK / USA/ French population and the difference in general health between vaccinated and unvaccinated.

You don’t even need to be from a developing country. I had a British relative who had TB and it was horrific for them, affected their whole life in ways that people wouldn’t have even expected.

Don't.

What's the worse that can happen? It's only your child's life at risk.

Have you got grandparents alive or friends from developing countries? I am sure they can give details of the diseases that they had to deal with that will kill your newborn or at least give them nasty side effects. Did you know mumps can make your baby boy infertile? Imagine explaining that to a son because you didn't want to vaccinate. It is thanks to vaccines that we aren't so familiar with these diseases. As a parent we put our children first and IMO you wouldn't be doing that and I would consider you selfish.

So questions - Why insist on so many different injections in one single visit? Surely much much safer to give a vaccine for one thing, let the baby's body deal with it and then go back for the next one when they're well again?

OK. So I'm not an immunologist and don't draw up vaccine schedules but I believe it's a combination of risk reduction and epidemiological knowledge as to why our schedule is what it is. There is no need to separate them so much as the immune system can deal with thousands of pathogens simultaneously. And let's be honest why would you want to give each element separately increasing the length of time a baby is unprotected and increasing the needle count from 2 to 7+ each time? The schedule is already such that there are 4 weeks between most vaccines to allow an immune response and recovery.

MMR - why oh why do they not still offer single vaccines? A lot of people who currently do not have the MMR would have single vaccines. I definitely would have vaccinated my two earlier if single was available. As it is, I've waited until their bodies were big enough and strong enough in my mind. Both were still poorly after their MMR and neither wants to go back for the booster (they will but you get my point, they're not 'nice' vaccines and do make you sick)

Single vaccines are unnecessary when we have a perfectly safe effective vaccine that gives good immunity against all 3 diseases. The NHS doesn't really offer pick and mix vaccines - it would be expensive, unnecessary and would only reinforce the idea that there's something wrong with MMR vaccine.

But listening to you, it's just get them vaccinated, as many as possible, as quickly as possible.

I think you'll find I said no such thing.

Are you 100% sure that a vaccine you've given hasn't severely affected a child?

Yes, I have never seen a child I've vaccinated with any side effects more severe than those one would expect - fever, malaise, sore limbs etc. The joy of working in primary care is you get to know your patients and families well, so I would know if any of the babies and children I've vaccinated ended up with serious illness, hospital admission, disability or death. I do not agree with your claims that "huge numbers" of adults or children are permanently damaged by vaccines. I have never seen a baby die within days of it's MMR vaccine.

I am all for parents wanting to discuss the risks and benefits of vaccination. I will always aim to have a sensible balanced discussion with them and provide them with as much information as I can.

I'm afraid that many people in the U.K. no longer trust the NHS at all. This all trickles through so that no one takes anything on trust at all.
It's fine if people want to do their own research - perhaps signposting reputable sources of information and statistics etc might be the way to go.

Cant wait to see the spurious excuse Ann3347 comes up with for discrediting these peer reviewed, controlled studies despite having suggested she was totally open to reading them.

Do you have an awareness of your limitations in interpreting complex data during your time as a student midwife?

I’m twenty odd years into a clinical career, with a masters, currently doing a PhD, write and review articles for publication, write national guidance in my clinical area but I would not be more able to interpret vaccination data than the JCVI.

I think we should be very careful about saying we researched something if we didn’t follow a methodology of research analysis/synthesis and have the skills to do this with the type of data we were looking at. It’s more likely that many people are googling and calling it research and others, with a bit more knowledge, are doing some targeted reading. Neither of these things are research. There is a whole committee of experts doing the research and interpretation of this research for us.

I’m still waiting for someone to give me some decent resources. People keep saying ‘Do your own research’ or saying that the Covid vaccine was bad but there’s been nothing provided to support these statements.

Which vaccine? What kind of population? Demographic group?

Yes in general for a lot of vaccines the unvaccinated group will be healthier on average, because higher risk people tend to be offered more vaccines...