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Original poster

....to be unsurprised the BBC called the London Oratory a "prestigious private school" when it isn't?

444 replies

doorkeeper · 27/12/2023 18:06

The London Oratory school is in the news because there's been a minor blaze there (nobody hurt) and a pupil has been taken in for questioning.

I was idly listening to PM on Radio 4, and they described the school as a "prestigious private school". Except it isn't, of course. It's a state-funded school. Except, again, it's functionally a free private school for posh and/or famous people that most ordinary mortals couldn't hope to get their kids into. I found this burst of accidental honesty from the BBC quite refreshing.

I'm sick of the posh London schools that are state-funded but that are effectively free private schools because of the way they massage their admissions. The now-disgraced former head of Holland Park School was taking HPS firmly in that direction, I know that a few other West London schools operate in the same way. I would love to see Ofsted - who were useless re the HPS scandal until it was too late - address this in some way. All children, even the ones whose parents aren't rich or famous, should have equal access to local schools, regardless of income, religion or parental connections.

AIBU to enjoy this bit of accidental honesty from the BBC?

OP posts:
Toscana37 · 29/12/2023 21:44

Tube is not free it’s a reduced rate with the 11-16 card.

Macaronichee · 29/12/2023 21:26

This. Lots of posts from people guessing what the system is at the Oratory. My three sons are there. Great school in many ways. There is no academic test for selection at 11. Testing is only done AFTER a place has been offered for setting purposes.

Toscana37 · 29/12/2023 21:23

Interestingly of the children I know of that have got in are generally from lower economic families and of lower academic ability. Some are doing ok others are really struggling which is no surprise. The level of behaviour of some kids is quite shocking but if you are top 50% you will probably do ok as with most excellent schools.

Toscana37 · 29/12/2023 21:15

Knowing kids at the London Oratory it is far from prestigious. It might have been once upon a time but it is now not able to be selective due to a court ruling 10+ years ago. Lots of very rough kids here too. I wouldn’t choose it myself.

Leah5678 · 29/12/2023 18:37

doorkeeper · 29/12/2023 18:21

This is spot-on.

Show quote history

Why are you bitching about Catholic schools? You realise schools in wealthy areas and grammar schools also have lower than average fsm statistics right?
You've already shown you have no idea what you're talking about when you claimed eastern European catholics were ruled out 🤔I went to school in the 00s and a third of my class were polish
Not a single good reason to have a problem with catholic schools Has been mentioned on this thread just a bunch of bitter people Mad they couldn't get their kids into their local good Catholic school (which are good because catholic parents have high standards not because they're "free private schools")

Original poster
doorkeeper · 29/12/2023 18:21

JassyRadlett · 28/12/2023 14:57

And the question becomes why are many faith (not just Catholic) primaries considered so "good" - and the answer is that the data shows that it's not the faith, it's the selection that makes those schools perform better. Where faith schools have an intake that doesn't discriminate, the actual ethos makes zero difference to their performance. Being able to select "motivated parents" (by house price, church attendance or other means), they get a more motivated parent body who are more committed to education and fewer children who are in very difficult economic circumstances and/or more disorganised and chaotic homes. Parent who are more committed to education mean fewer absences, fewer behaviour issues... the schools are starting from a much stronger position.

Oversubscribed primaries become a self-perpetuating machine. All forms of selection take a disproportionately well-off intake, and then get results that reflect their demographic.

For the Oratory primary - it would be difficult to see how its catchment (the priority parish being a handful of streets in South Kensington) wouldn't dramatically skew its intake. And this is borne out by its FSM figures which are even lower than the Oratory's.

Show quote history

This is spot-on.

OP posts:
Leah5678 · 29/12/2023 18:09

doorkeeper · 28/12/2023 02:32

The "cleaner's kids" would only get in if they were not only Catholic, but also had the family leisure time available to go to church (ie didnt have to work weekends), and could prove it (not always easy if you've moved here from elsewhere). The criteria used to say clearly on some West London Catholic schools that you'd have to have baptised your kids by the age of 6 months, which immediately ruled out a lot of Eastern European Catholic kids, but that seems to have now gone from the written admissions policies.

Show quote history

You got a problem with catholic schools? I went to one and my kids are going to one right now. Lots of polish Catholics so you're talking bs saying eastern Europeans are ruled out.
They're not "prestigious posh free private schools" if they get a good reputation regarding grades and behaviour thats because most catholic parents instill good values

AnonymousLondoner · 29/12/2023 16:33

Firmbutfair23 · 29/12/2023 04:13

I live next door to it and the whole thing was blown out of proportion, I couldn’t believe it made national news.
it’s a state school free to get in but cost once you your in do genuinely local people would know not to apply if they didn’t have the funds to keep up with the “ style of education” extra curriculum costs / uniform costs / musical instrument costs however the schools not exactly fancy including the facilities.
regarding the OTT response to the fire- that was ridiculous. No one harmed and part of building was damaged. My window faces on to the building and there wasn’t even any noticeable fire apart from the fire crew being there.

I wouldn't say that's an entirely accurate perspective.

The facilities are first-rate for a state school. The place was renovated only a few years ago and is remarkably modern inside in comparison to a lot of other schools, which isn't necessarily 'right' or 'fair' but is ultimately how it is.

You're correct in saying that nobody was harmed. But there's pretty extensive damage to the inside of the building from my understanding. The entire library is gone, with not a single book surviving. Apparently a huge number of classrooms are also completely gone too, with the roof having also melted and burnt away.

I do think there'll be huge disruption to the kids and their education; it wouldn't surprise me if they had to go back to Covid-style online learning for a period of time. So I wouldn't at all say it was blown out of proportion.

aliceinanwonderland · 29/12/2023 14:57

CaptainOhMyCaptain · 28/12/2023 22:19

The thing is, if you don’t live close by, there is actually a cost to getting to the Oratory - the tube and train aren’t free. Buses are, but they aren’t practical for getting to Fulham from, say, Leyton. So I wonder whether the cost of getting there puts off the very poorest (and FSM families are the very poorest - it is perfectly possible, sadly, to be very disadvantaged and still not poor enough for free school meals).

I think all children get an Oyster card so tube is free

Mumofsevenboys · 29/12/2023 08:52

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Firmbutfair23 · 29/12/2023 04:13

I live next door to it and the whole thing was blown out of proportion, I couldn’t believe it made national news.
it’s a state school free to get in but cost once you your in do genuinely local people would know not to apply if they didn’t have the funds to keep up with the “ style of education” extra curriculum costs / uniform costs / musical instrument costs however the schools not exactly fancy including the facilities.
regarding the OTT response to the fire- that was ridiculous. No one harmed and part of building was damaged. My window faces on to the building and there wasn’t even any noticeable fire apart from the fire crew being there.

mantyzer · 29/12/2023 04:03

@IdaPolly the proportion this year is way way less than the average school.

mantyzer · 29/12/2023 04:02

@Boydd No one is saying there are no children from disadvantaged backgrounds. But the number of pupils on fsm is way below the average school. So the school population is on average from much less deprived backgrounds than your average school.

Boydd · 28/12/2023 23:34

Sorry don’t know why the first trust me is there I tried to edit

Boydd · 28/12/2023 23:28

I grew up second generation Irish in Shepherd’s Bush and trust me a number of my Peers attended sacred heart and the oratory and trust me they did come from a deprived background. I also attended a very good catholic school and the only entry requirement any of us needed was to be brought up in the catholic faith. I have since moved out of the area but my youngest son was offered a place at the oratory and the only real entry requirement was the same

Mumofthreedogsandaboy · 28/12/2023 23:16

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CaptainOhMyCaptain · 28/12/2023 22:58

How can it be a private school if it’s free?

uclpp · 28/12/2023 22:57

Tony Blair's kids went there. It is a prestigious school and private by stealth.
Yes, having no private schools would be great if we could all have our kids at a state school as good as that one.

IdaPolly · 28/12/2023 22:51

Probably already been mentioned but 11.6% of kids at London Oratory have been on free school meals in the last 6 years.

Mumofthreedogsandaboy · 28/12/2023 22:42

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CaptainOhMyCaptain · 28/12/2023 22:25

In my experience, those attracted to the Oratory are people who want a rigorous, disciplined, traditional education and aren’t put off by the very strict atmosphere and lack of pupil/parent voice, seeing it as worthwhile for the academic results. There’s also a lot of rugby. It really isn’t for everyone and a lot of families really aren’t up for that, so am baffled as to why anyone expects it to exactly match the demographics of H&F, W/SW London Catholic schools or London as a whole.

CaptainOhMyCaptain · 28/12/2023 22:19

The thing is, if you don’t live close by, there is actually a cost to getting to the Oratory - the tube and train aren’t free. Buses are, but they aren’t practical for getting to Fulham from, say, Leyton. So I wonder whether the cost of getting there puts off the very poorest (and FSM families are the very poorest - it is perfectly possible, sadly, to be very disadvantaged and still not poor enough for free school meals).

bloatedbobby · 28/12/2023 20:54

@Alligator456 the threshold is ridiculous. You can be very much disadvantaged & not qualify for FSMs but yes shocking how much do qualify.

Alligator456 · 28/12/2023 20:51

This thread prompted me to look up the percentage of children entitled to FSM. It's 24%. Because you can earn only a small amount and still be entitled to FSM that means 24% of children are mainly living on benefits.

It seems crazy that so many are in this position and unsustainable for the government to be funding so many families. I wonder how many are single parents where the absent parent isn't contributing? Or is contributing but it doesn't count towards the total for FSM.

Anyway a bit off topic.

sleepyscientist · 28/12/2023 20:38

JassyRadlett · 28/12/2023 19:30

It's going to be incredibly interesting to see how the church education authorities are going to deal with the huge pupil population shift over the next decade, as they won't always have the same suite of options as the maintained sector have in terms of merging, etc. I think it will raise some really tricky issues for some of them - although of course it's going to be really hard for most schools.

Our local faith schools are over subscribed every year. The kids attending now will be raising the next generation and are also likely to attend church to get the kids into school even if they don't believe. I don't believe (husband is Catholic) but do believe it is a good life to live based on teaching and reflections. The only non-Catholic kids on DS school live within 200-300m of the school in an affluent area.