Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

....to be unsurprised the BBC called the London Oratory a "prestigious private school" when it isn't?

444 replies

doorkeeper · 27/12/2023 18:06

The London Oratory school is in the news because there's been a minor blaze there (nobody hurt) and a pupil has been taken in for questioning.

I was idly listening to PM on Radio 4, and they described the school as a "prestigious private school". Except it isn't, of course. It's a state-funded school. Except, again, it's functionally a free private school for posh and/or famous people that most ordinary mortals couldn't hope to get their kids into. I found this burst of accidental honesty from the BBC quite refreshing.

I'm sick of the posh London schools that are state-funded but that are effectively free private schools because of the way they massage their admissions. The now-disgraced former head of Holland Park School was taking HPS firmly in that direction, I know that a few other West London schools operate in the same way. I would love to see Ofsted - who were useless re the HPS scandal until it was too late - address this in some way. All children, even the ones whose parents aren't rich or famous, should have equal access to local schools, regardless of income, religion or parental connections.

AIBU to enjoy this bit of accidental honesty from the BBC?

OP posts:
annabelnw9 · 28/12/2023 08:49

Having worked in Hammersmith and Fulham borough as a child protection social worker (including the Fulham area) I can assure you there are very significant social problems across the area including endemic drug use /dealing, alcohol abuse issues , child abuse and child neglect, mental health, homelessness as well as unemployment . There are large pockets of social housing across the borough and deprivation - hidden behind /away from the shiny shopping centres and nice parks.

It’s a moot point anyway as entry to the London Oratory is NOT based on distance.

AnotherNewt · 28/12/2023 08:33

I'm not sure what charitable functions it every carried out

What counts as a charitable activity is set out in law. The provision of education is a charitable aim.

The Charities Commission does check up that charities are fulfilling their charitable aims, so if you are concerned that a body registered as a charity is not doing so, you can report them. Plus they have to submit annual reports with their accounts showing what they do.

Despite best efforts of the Blair government to force independent schools to replace the Assisted Places Scheme at their expense (and early New Labour policy change was to end that scheme), that never happened. It all went to tribunal, and although various actions (such as the provision of bursaries) was desirable, it was held to be neither necessary nor sufficient for charitable status

SquirmOfEels · 28/12/2023 08:22

bloatedbobby · 28/12/2023 00:55

Newsflash: David Cameron’s daughter went to Greycoats,

how did they manage that?

It is the closest state school to Downing Street that admits girls.

Happy accident, I think.

Whataretheodds · 28/12/2023 04:56

Lolaandbehold · 28/12/2023 02:25

I reckon this is the first time I’ve ever heard Fulham referred to as “not particularly salubrious”.

Indeed. I was scrolling down hoping someone had made exactly this point.

bloatedbobby · 28/12/2023 04:19
  • “Universal Credit - if you apply on or after 1 April 2018 your household income must be less than £7,400 a year (after tax and not including any benefits you get)“

That is incredibly low, as I said you can be disadvantaged but not qualify for fsm. Many London boroughs have universal fsm at primary already.

bloatedbobby · 28/12/2023 04:10

So why is the number of pupils on fsm so low if it is equally open to everyone?

Thats true of most of the “best” state secondaries though isn’t it? And tbh you can be disadvantaged & still not qualify for fsm, the bar is very low . The stats for EAL are usually pretty high at catholic schools vs non faith.

bloatedbobby · 28/12/2023 04:01

I’m a 2nd gen immigrant & the vast vast majority of my school friends were 2nd gen immigrants at catholic schools. My dcs outstanding state non faith primary is far less diverse because it has a tiny catchment (500 meters) & prohibitively high house prices.

mantyzer · 28/12/2023 03:59

So why is the number of pupils on fsm so low if it is equally open to everyone?
Hint - it is not.

bloatedbobby · 28/12/2023 03:57

The "cleaner's kids" would only get in if they were not only Catholic, but also had the family leisure time available to go to church (ie didnt have to work weekends), and could prove it (not always easy if you've moved here from elsewhere)

But that’s true of any catholic school & most require attendance not necessarily only weekend attendance. If you’ve only just moved you can have a supplementary form from that parish/priest.

Mintygoodness · 28/12/2023 03:57

In London there are Masses at the weekend at a large number of times and locations and as Saturday Evening is considered the start of the Sunday liturgy, Saturday evening Mass is also an option. A devout Catholic in London can get to Mass at some time, even in their lunch hour. I have Catholic friends in all walks of life, the majority working-class and noone says they regularly have problems getting to Mass on Sunday. The requirements for any practicing Catholics are standard and any Catholic family regularly meeting their Sunday obligation would have no problem. Most would consider it the bare minimum.

mantyzer · 28/12/2023 03:27

@annabelnw9 What rubbish! Only 4.4% of pupils there are on fsm. The regional average at schools is 18.2%. So 59 of its pupils are from poorer backgrounds. And I would be very surprised if although poor, they did not have connections, making their cultural capital high.

ClareBlue · 28/12/2023 02:57

annabelnw9 · 27/12/2023 22:22

The London Oratory is not a ‘state funded private school’. It has a transparent admissions policy and many students from poorer families/low income families around London enjoy its benefits. It actively fundraises to improve its facilities and today’s news is a horrible set back for students and staff.

The big issue in my view is the abject failure of many private schools (that enjoy all the benefits of having charitable status), to actually engage in any meaningful charitable activity/ public good/ offer their facilities/expertise to less privileged children living nearby who could massively benefit from them. That is what needs to have a light shone on it and private schools named and shamed where they fail to live up to their charitable status (and its consequent financial benefits).

Edited

This is a really interesting point. As someone who benefitted from an educational institution that had charitable status, I'm not sure what charitable functions it every carried out. Is there some accountability for having the status? There were significant advantages to the institution, that's not in doubt.

ClareBlue · 28/12/2023 02:48

It happens up north too.
Skipton in North Yorkshire has a girls and boys state funded schools that are as good as any private school. Still selective, so rich parents can get their sprogs in no problem. All good in Skipton for afluent families, you'll be pleased to know.

Original poster
doorkeeper · 28/12/2023 02:32

NuffSaidSam · 28/12/2023 00:56

I worked in a Catholic primary school in West London. Bog standard, albeit in a nice area. Loads of the kids went on to Scared Heart, Oratory, Cardinal Vaughn, Cardinal Wiseman etc. Just kids from completely normal backgrounds.

London is full of people from all different backgrounds, in all different circumstances squashed together in a small space, these schools reflect that. The PM's kids and your cleaners kids at the same school. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.

The "cleaner's kids" would only get in if they were not only Catholic, but also had the family leisure time available to go to church (ie didnt have to work weekends), and could prove it (not always easy if you've moved here from elsewhere). The criteria used to say clearly on some West London Catholic schools that you'd have to have baptised your kids by the age of 6 months, which immediately ruled out a lot of Eastern European Catholic kids, but that seems to have now gone from the written admissions policies.

OP posts:
grumpesaurus · 28/12/2023 02:30

I've never heard of state funded private schools. How do they justify taking in only certain people like celebs/rich people's kids?

Lolaandbehold · 28/12/2023 02:25

I reckon this is the first time I’ve ever heard Fulham referred to as “not particularly salubrious”.

Original poster
doorkeeper · 28/12/2023 02:05

Runnynoses · 28/12/2023 00:30

What a lot of ill informed nonsense on this thread.

So what if Tony Blair’s children went there? And his daughter would have got in under the sibling rule whether or not her brothers were current pupils.

Newsflash: David Cameron’s daughter went to Greycoats, another state school. And Tony Blair’s youngest son went to Cardinal Vaughan. So what?!

Anyone who has visited any of these schools or has children there will know that there is a huge gulf between these schools and fee-paying schools in London.

But you've named Greycoats and Cardinal Vaughn, which are also in the "effectively free private school" category. You've made my point for me, not contradicted it.

I don't think you realise what ordinary state schools are like.

OP posts:
Evanesy · 28/12/2023 01:01

Grimpo · 28/12/2023 00:53

It would have been quite talented for Blair's daughter to get into what was then an all boys school.

Show quote history

You mean what was then a mixed sixth form…

NuffSaidSam · 28/12/2023 00:56

I worked in a Catholic primary school in West London. Bog standard, albeit in a nice area. Loads of the kids went on to Scared Heart, Oratory, Cardinal Vaughn, Cardinal Wiseman etc. Just kids from completely normal backgrounds.

London is full of people from all different backgrounds, in all different circumstances squashed together in a small space, these schools reflect that. The PM's kids and your cleaners kids at the same school. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.

bloatedbobby · 28/12/2023 00:55

Newsflash: David Cameron’s daughter went to Greycoats,

how did they manage that?

bloatedbobby · 28/12/2023 00:53

My DCs catholic primary in SW London is listed as one.

I don’t think it has feeders

CinnamonJellyBeans · 28/12/2023 00:53

What percentage of Free School meals do they have at the London Oratory? That will settle the argument.

Grimpo · 28/12/2023 00:53

Runnynoses · 28/12/2023 00:30

What a lot of ill informed nonsense on this thread.

So what if Tony Blair’s children went there? And his daughter would have got in under the sibling rule whether or not her brothers were current pupils.

Newsflash: David Cameron’s daughter went to Greycoats, another state school. And Tony Blair’s youngest son went to Cardinal Vaughan. So what?!

Anyone who has visited any of these schools or has children there will know that there is a huge gulf between these schools and fee-paying schools in London.

It would have been quite talented for Blair's daughter to get into what was then an all boys school.

StellaGibson2022 · 28/12/2023 00:49

Evanesy · 28/12/2023 00:25

Similarly, my neighbour when I was growing up in Hampstead went to the Oratory, whilst his sister was at Sacred Heart. Again, neither anywhere near the school.

Show quote history

The Oratory (like Sacred Heart) will have a list of feeder Catholic primary schools.

My DCs catholic primary in SW London is listed as one.

aliceinanwonderland · 28/12/2023 00:40

KnickerlessParsons · 27/12/2023 22:32

The Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair sent his children to the Oratory, so that he could say they were at a state school. Hypocrite.

His wife Cherie is a devout Catholic as is Nick Clegg's wife. The school's catholic ethos would have been the key thing

Swipe left for the next trending thread