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Original poster

....to be unsurprised the BBC called the London Oratory a "prestigious private school" when it isn't?

444 replies

doorkeeper · 27/12/2023 18:06

The London Oratory school is in the news because there's been a minor blaze there (nobody hurt) and a pupil has been taken in for questioning.

I was idly listening to PM on Radio 4, and they described the school as a "prestigious private school". Except it isn't, of course. It's a state-funded school. Except, again, it's functionally a free private school for posh and/or famous people that most ordinary mortals couldn't hope to get their kids into. I found this burst of accidental honesty from the BBC quite refreshing.

I'm sick of the posh London schools that are state-funded but that are effectively free private schools because of the way they massage their admissions. The now-disgraced former head of Holland Park School was taking HPS firmly in that direction, I know that a few other West London schools operate in the same way. I would love to see Ofsted - who were useless re the HPS scandal until it was too late - address this in some way. All children, even the ones whose parents aren't rich or famous, should have equal access to local schools, regardless of income, religion or parental connections.

AIBU to enjoy this bit of accidental honesty from the BBC?

OP posts:
bloatedbobby · 28/12/2023 10:27

You’re wrong, it’s currently 5 years attendance at any Catholic church.

Yes, some catholic schools prioritise parishioners in their area others don’t.

Thelondonone · 28/12/2023 10:27

When I watched it yesterday they said ‘selective catholic school’, which is accurate…

bloatedbobby · 28/12/2023 10:26

@Trickleg there seems to be one listed on the admissions info.

CecilyP · 28/12/2023 10:26

urbanbuddha · 28/12/2023 00:40

With faith schools like The Oratory it’s children who have regularly attended the church attached to the school who get first dibs. So I suppose if you travelled from Kent every Sunday for five years …

You’re wrong, it’s currently 5 years attendance at any Catholic church.

bloatedbobby · 28/12/2023 10:25

Plus 5 yrs of regular church attendance is quite a requirement. Most want 1-2 yrs evidence so that will exclude less committed Catholics including myself!

I also think a lot of parents panic when it comes to secondary & realise too late re Catholic eligibility. My priest always bemoans the amount of parents who turn up with a supplementary form asking him to fill it in. If he has never seen you before, doesn’t know you it’s a no.

x2boys · 28/12/2023 10:22

Sorethroatandearache · 28/12/2023 10:13

But is a state school?

Show quote history

There are state schools and state schools though I can't imagine him sending them to any state school
But to be fair nobody really wants to send their kids to a school with a terrible reputation.

pushbaum · 28/12/2023 10:21

CecilyP · 28/12/2023 09:56

No, it’s parents that establish their own worthiness by getting the certificate of Catholic Practice from their priest which currently means attending church for 5 years. In effect, it seems more educated parents, some of whom will be rich, will fulfill the criteria.

Agree that in practice, Catholics living in H&F and neighbouring boroughs will be passed over for more worthy Catholic living further afield.

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I’ve nephews who went to the oratory - early 20s now but as part of the admissions process they attended interviews which were very in depth about Catholic beliefs, theology and sacraments and their individual faith. The process went way beyond certs of attendance at Mass, eg they were asked about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, Papal infallibility, details of the sacraments, how they prayed etc.

x2boys · 28/12/2023 10:18

I wonder what the levels of bullying are like ,there is a school fairly .local.to me which is a C of E school.which has always been highly regarded. With good exam results etc
Most people unless they are regular church attendees and are able to afford to live within the catchment area don't have a hope in hell of getting their kids into the school
However the Last Ofsted placed the school into special measures due to the amount of bullying and lack of response from staff .

bloatedbobby · 28/12/2023 10:13

This doesn't really map out the same in West London, where the London Oratory is. For whatever reason, the options if you are a (particular kind of) Catholic are much more plentiful and of a higher standard, than if you are not.

Catholic schools have always been good performance wise though vs other schools. The one I went to was great in the 90s and still is.

CaptainOhMyCaptain · 28/12/2023 10:13

and for completeness I think the London Oratory DOES have two feeder state primary schools - both of which are local-ish (Kensington?) plus its own music based v small primary school which is definitely an oddity.

Sorethroatandearache · 28/12/2023 10:13

KnickerlessParsons · 27/12/2023 22:32

The Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair sent his children to the Oratory, so that he could say they were at a state school. Hypocrite.

But is a state school?

CecilyP · 28/12/2023 10:07

edwinbear · 27/12/2023 21:57

It’s going to be a load more over subscribed in about 6 months time when VAT gets added to school fees and the private school parents decide The Oratory is pretty good value.

It won’t! You can’t backdate 5 years of church attendance!

CecilyP · 28/12/2023 10:03

bloatedbobby · 27/12/2023 19:16

and is a faith school which prioritises by attendance, siblings and children of staff before straight distance.

That's normal for faith schools and many non faith state secondaries prioritise siblings, staff children before straight distance

Sibling priority - so far so normal! Children of staff, less common but also happens in some schools. Oratory also prioritises siblings of former pupils and children of former pupils which definitely takes it into ‘old boys network’ territory!

CecilyP · 28/12/2023 09:56

Talapia · 27/12/2023 19:08

I know someone whose DC got into Oratory from Kent I assume there were no dedicated Catholics living nearer.

Or it could have been because they are filthy rich... And bounced up the list over less "worthy catholics.'

No, it’s parents that establish their own worthiness by getting the certificate of Catholic Practice from their priest which currently means attending church for 5 years. In effect, it seems more educated parents, some of whom will be rich, will fulfill the criteria.

Agree that in practice, Catholics living in H&F and neighbouring boroughs will be passed over for more worthy Catholic living further afield.

Evanesy · 28/12/2023 09:55

CaptainOhMyCaptain · 28/12/2023 08:50

For clarity - the London Oratory admits by lottery. There is no catchment. If the child is a baptised and practicing Catholic they go into the lottery and about a half/third of the children get a place. Priority IS given to siblings and the children of those who went to the school. But mostly it’s the lottery regardless of income, location or aptitude.

There is an awful lot of incorrect information on this thread. The Oratory gets amazing results because it attracts motivated parents and is very, very, very strict. Not my cup of tea but many love it. It is not a private school in any shape or form, and the families I know with children there are from every socio-economic background.

Ah, that I didn’t know. And therefore it makes a lot of sense. I had a few friends at the Oratory who lived all around London, some as far as Harrow, and it never occurred to me until this thread that they would have been a long way away. This, together with the siblings rule, does clarify it.

OliviaSW1 · 28/12/2023 09:51

That is technically correct. However the provision of education that is paid for by parents is not really in the spirit of charity . https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn05222/. In law charity must include provision of services to the ‘poor’. And it is here that many highly privileged rich private schools fail to do their duty and fail to justify their charitable status . On the other hand faith schools such as the Oratory provide excellent educational and culture opportunities to children who otherwise would never have access to them.

CecilyP · 28/12/2023 09:48

Ozgirl75 · 27/12/2023 18:46

Surely schools in affluent areas (especially in London) would always have a cache of affluent children going to them then.
I don’t really understand how that’s different to schools in affluent areas of any part of the country, apart from the fact that the areas are very affluent.

The area is fairly mixed, and anyway takes boys from far and wide as it prioritises practising Catholics. If you compare its intake with other local schools like Chelsea Academy or Hurlingham, you can see how different it is.

CecilyP · 28/12/2023 09:43

piperatthegates · 27/12/2023 18:57

Tony Blairs children went to London Oratory when they were living in Downing Street, presumably because Cherie was a practising catholic. (As did Nick Clegg and Harriet Harman's)

Wrong! Euan Blair was already at the school before Blair was PM when the family lived in Islington. That is a very unusual distance to travel to School in London! He did indeed get in because Cherie was a practicing Catholic. From Downing Street it would not be so unusual. Also, the Cleggs lived in Putney, so again fairly local.

Original poster
doorkeeper · 28/12/2023 09:39

I think that some people's definition of "ordinary people" on this thread is different from the rest of us.

OP posts:
Original poster
doorkeeper · 28/12/2023 09:35

bloatedbobby · 28/12/2023 04:01

I’m a 2nd gen immigrant & the vast vast majority of my school friends were 2nd gen immigrants at catholic schools. My dcs outstanding state non faith primary is far less diverse because it has a tiny catchment (500 meters) & prohibitively high house prices.

This doesn't really map out the same in West London, where the London Oratory is. For whatever reason, the options if you are a (particular kind of) Catholic are much more plentiful and of a higher standard, than if you are not. In recent years, two new secondary schools have been built to try and mop up all the other kids who don't have a hope of getting into those schools. (Unfortunately even one of those has delusions of grandure, and has been trying to make poorer families self-select out of choosing it by making the uniform and parental contributions really expensive.)

OP posts:
CecilyP · 28/12/2023 09:30

Ozgirl75 · 27/12/2023 18:33

I don’t know how the London systems work but dont schools have a catchment area? So how do they massage entries if they have to take people from a certain area. There aren’t state selective schools in London are there?

No they don’t have fixed catchments at all. London is not an education authority anyway; each of the 32 London boroughs are, and some of them have selective schools. However, Catholic schools, wherever they are, tend to exist outside normal catchment.

urbanbuddha · 28/12/2023 09:03

Notable that Cameron’s son didn’t go to state school for all the noise he made about it when his daughter started secondary. I suppose posh people just can’t bear for their sons to miss out on the good old divisive traditions of Eton or wherever.

urbanbuddha · 28/12/2023 08:54

SquirmOfEels · 28/12/2023 08:22

It is the closest state school to Downing Street that admits girls.

Happy accident, I think.

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Greycoats admits a percentage of girls who show an ability for languages. Hundreds of girls apply for 15 places and sit an aptitude test.

Wimbledonmum1985 · 28/12/2023 08:51

doorkeeper · 27/12/2023 18:06

The London Oratory school is in the news because there's been a minor blaze there (nobody hurt) and a pupil has been taken in for questioning.

I was idly listening to PM on Radio 4, and they described the school as a "prestigious private school". Except it isn't, of course. It's a state-funded school. Except, again, it's functionally a free private school for posh and/or famous people that most ordinary mortals couldn't hope to get their kids into. I found this burst of accidental honesty from the BBC quite refreshing.

I'm sick of the posh London schools that are state-funded but that are effectively free private schools because of the way they massage their admissions. The now-disgraced former head of Holland Park School was taking HPS firmly in that direction, I know that a few other West London schools operate in the same way. I would love to see Ofsted - who were useless re the HPS scandal until it was too late - address this in some way. All children, even the ones whose parents aren't rich or famous, should have equal access to local schools, regardless of income, religion or parental connections.

AIBU to enjoy this bit of accidental honesty from the BBC?

Why can’t ‘mere mortals’ send their sons there? I know plenty of ordinary people whose sons go there.

CaptainOhMyCaptain · 28/12/2023 08:50

For clarity - the London Oratory admits by lottery. There is no catchment. If the child is a baptised and practicing Catholic they go into the lottery and about a half/third of the children get a place. Priority IS given to siblings and the children of those who went to the school. But mostly it’s the lottery regardless of income, location or aptitude.

There is an awful lot of incorrect information on this thread. The Oratory gets amazing results because it attracts motivated parents and is very, very, very strict. Not my cup of tea but many love it. It is not a private school in any shape or form, and the families I know with children there are from every socio-economic background.

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