....to be unsurprised the BBC called the London Oratory a "prestigious private school" when it isn't?

@JassyRadlett I haven’t seen the data but am not disagreeing. I’m just saying that Catholic state schools are neither the preserve of the rich nor stuffed full of white British middle class families. It’s much more nuanced than that.

@JassyRadlett which catholic school did you go to? I can tell you that mine wasn’t full of only rich people. Not getting FSMs doesn’t equal rich although I did qualify for FSMs at some point.

The intakes of all schools - Catholic, CofE, community, etc - that practise selection are disproportionately rich.

which schools don’t have some form of selection criteria?

In looking at the admission arrangements for the Oratory and its feeder primary (which prioritises Catholic children by the parish they live in), I was startled and then laughed to see they're currently consulting to expand their admissions to prioritise not just the siblings of former students but the children of former students.

I read the admissions criteria before responding to this thread. Children of former students is right there in the priorities.

Interestingly, though, the data shows they're disproportionately well-off. The effect is less pronounced in Catholic schools than CofE but it still exists.

Exactly @Trickleg

Catholicism in this country is primarily an immigrant religion (Irish, Polish, Filipino, South American). It’s not just the Duke of Norfolk.

The intakes of all schools - Catholic, CofE, community, etc - that practise selection are disproportionately rich.

I guess it depends on how you define rich? How much more than the average salary?

Oh for goodness sake. Catholic primaries that are oversubscribed do well because they have parents who care enough to fill in the forms, go to church, see their priest. So the families are generally invested in their education (as well as being invested in their faith). As a prior poster says, what you don’t get is chaotic or disorganised families who can’t get it together enough to go to church, or get their children baptised.

lots of these parents who care enough are from very disadvantaged backgrounds indeed.

(I don't actually hate rich people, but education school be a level playing field)

The vast majority of intake in a catholic school are not rich. They rich generally chose private!

I don’t think anyone is calling it to be torn down. Or criticising hard working staff. Simply saying that some aspects replicate private schools while the intake, in terms of prior attainment, is very similar to some grammar schools. Of course parental support makes a great difference to attainment.

Yep! So it's very silly to pretend that these schools take children from "all walks of life" or are representative of their communities - which was OP's original point.

They take disproportionately well-off children with much higher prior attainment, and turn out exactly the results you'd expect. Social selection is alive and well and there is really no point suggesting otherwise.

Shock horror! Children from families who value education and support their children do better in school than children whose parents don’t give a toss. So - schools which attract a higher % of motivated and supportive families have better results, attract better teachers, expect high behavioural standards and can raise more money, hence those schools are more sought after.

It seems the Oratory have seen this coming and are now trying to prioritise the children of former students over other Catholic boys...

Exactly my point.

The priests and teachers of poor young Catholics need to raise awareness in their communities and schools of this option available to their young people.

It's bad enough that the rich secure the best university places via paying for private education, but when they do this by monopolising the good Catholic schools, which are meant to be accessible to all, this is not right.

It suits these West London schools to retain this strong Catholic ethos, as this is the secret code to rich people applying and getting in.

(I don't actually hate rich people, but education school be a level playing field)

Church attendance and another factor - namely, do you live in the Oratory Parish, or second priority the Holy Redeemer parish...

That just pushes the issue back as many of the Catholic primaries in the area are very selective, too.

Selecting by religion or another factor?

In West London you might be surprised at the number of white middle-class Brits

Do you mean white English middle class catholics? There can't be that many of them in the first place surely?! 😆

And the question becomes why are many faith (not just Catholic) primaries considered so "good" - and the answer is that the data shows that it's not the faith, it's the selection that makes those schools perform better. Where faith schools have an intake that doesn't discriminate, the actual ethos makes zero difference to their performance. Being able to select "motivated parents" (by house price, church attendance or other means), they get a more motivated parent body who are more committed to education and fewer children who are in very difficult economic circumstances and/or more disorganised and chaotic homes. Parent who are more committed to education mean fewer absences, fewer behaviour issues... the schools are starting from a much stronger position.

Oversubscribed primaries become a self-perpetuating machine. All forms of selection take a disproportionately well-off intake, and then get results that reflect their demographic.

For the Oratory primary - it would be difficult to see how its catchment (the priority parish being a handful of streets in South Kensington) wouldn't dramatically skew its intake. And this is borne out by its FSM figures which are even lower than the Oratory's.

The intake for the Oratory is much richer than the norm and have much, much higher prior attainment.

Wouldn't that be in part to the fact many Catholic primaries are very good?

Is "highly motivated" code for "not poor"?

I posted the figures in response to a suggestion that the Oratory was representative of its community and many have parents in low-paid jobs. The intake for the Oratory is much richer than the norm and have much, much higher prior attainment.

I wouldn't disagree (as many on this thread have) that this is in large part down to highly engaged and motivated parents who see the Oratory, like similar schools with a very skewed profile, as a viable alternative to private education and resource it appropriately.

In looking at the admission arrangements for the Oratory and its feeder primary (which prioritises Catholic children by the parish they live in), I was startled and then laughed to see they're currently consulting to expand their admissions to prioritise not just the siblings of former students but the children of former students.

There seems to be lots of very salty and ignorant individuals on this thread who clearly lack any perspective or understanding of what life at the Oratory is like.

Pedalling falsehoods and mistruths based on assumptions doesn’t take away from the fact that a place of education for over a thousand children from 7-18 years old has been significantly damaged. The semantics of how the school is portrayed shouldn’t really have anything to do with this story.

The school is a high-achieving and objectively prestigious state school with a proud Catholic ethos. Its admissions policy is clear, and takes pupils from a vast array of different backgrounds. It has high standards, and produces excellent results. Its pupils come out as rounded individuals. I struggle to understand how people can complain about this and assert that it is a bad thing? If all of those things were happening at a secular, non-Catholic school, I feel the responses would be significantly different.

Rather than blaming individual schools for setting their pupils up to be successful, maybe the root cause of educational inequality should be blamed instead - the significant funding problems that schools are facing.

If the option is there for an excellent quality of education for your child, who would blame you for taking it?

There is an entirely optional system for parents and alumni to make donations, and that is something the school are very transparent about. Most of these voluntary donations come from parents.

University applications are supported by the very knowledgeable and experienced teachers who form the sixth form leadership team, not alumni.

Unlike lots of state schools, the Oratory doesn’t actually offer work experience to their pupils. So alumni do not source placements for pupils at the school.

Like most schools, parents and alumni who may have interesting jobs or expertise will very occasionally go in to do talks.

I wouldn’t exactly say that’s unreasonable.

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