Page 8 | To be shocked that over half a million people under the age of 35 are out of work due to long-term sickness

puncheur · 2023-12-24T16:29:14+00:00

I had no idea. These numbers are extraordinary. 560k people between the ages of 16 and 34 economically inactive due to long term illness. [[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/24/500000-under-35s-out-of-work-long-term-illness-uk?CMP=Share<u>iOSApp</u>Other https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/24/500000-under-35s-out-of-work-long-term-illness-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other]]

Superparp · 25/12/2023 21:15

DH suffers from sleep apnea. It took over 1 year to get seen to by an NHS specialist. If he hadn't been able to self treat, he would have been out of work.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 25/12/2023 21:07

DonnaBanana · 25/12/2023 15:41

ME is essentially a disability as well as a disease and should be treated with the same respect. No one tells a blind or deaf person to try harder do they? They need to rest as long as needed to improve or potentially forever if that’s how their condition works out. At the same time they should probably have their passports and driving licenses taken away so they don’t cause themselves undue stress by unnecessary long travel activities.

Remove driving licenses from people with a disability?

Yes, brilliant idea. Let’s make it harder for people to attend doctors appointments, do their shopping or visit friends or family just in case they have the cheek to have a trip somewhere too far…

No wonder the Tories get away with what they do with vile attitudes like that.

Neitheronethingnortheother · 25/12/2023 20:49

Squaringthecircle · 25/12/2023 20:43

So you want to punish disabled people by removing their passports and driving licenses to make an example of them - under a pretence of "so they don't cause themselves undue stress"?

So that no-one is tempted to fake a disability?

But it's ok if disabled people are collateral damage in your disincentivization scheme and have their human rights taken away?

You don't really consider disabled people fully human, do you? You are transparent about that.

Not every disabled person can pass the medical required to get a driving license, that's how the cookie crumbles. But if someone can safely drive who are you to remove their license?

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As someone who cannot drive due to a disability its a completely fucked up idea anyway

You have ME, things exhaust you. You have a doctors appointment. You can either step outside your front door, get in your car, drive for 20 mins, go to your doctors, get back in your car, drive for 20 mins, step back inside your house.

Or you can walk half a mile to the nearest bus stop, stand around for 20 mins waiting for the next bus (and you can't sit down properly because they have those stupid perch seats just in case a homeless person might get a tiny bit of comfort under a shelter at night), then you sit on a bus for 40 mins which drops you a 5 minute walk from the doctors. Leave the doctors and repeat on the way home

Because sure that's so much less tiring than driving for a person with chronic fatigue... 🙄That poster is just being a goady fucker whose idea of fun on Chrismas day is to spread joy by making disabled people feel shit about themselves. They must have a very sad pathetic life tbh

TigerRag · 25/12/2023 20:46

DonnaBanana · 25/12/2023 15:41

ME is essentially a disability as well as a disease and should be treated with the same respect. No one tells a blind or deaf person to try harder do they? They need to rest as long as needed to improve or potentially forever if that’s how their condition works out. At the same time they should probably have their passports and driving licenses taken away so they don’t cause themselves undue stress by unnecessary long travel activities.

I mostly use my passport as ID. So if you remove my passport, what do I use for ID?

Squaringthecircle · 25/12/2023 20:43

DonnaBanana · 25/12/2023 15:41

ME is essentially a disability as well as a disease and should be treated with the same respect. No one tells a blind or deaf person to try harder do they? They need to rest as long as needed to improve or potentially forever if that’s how their condition works out. At the same time they should probably have their passports and driving licenses taken away so they don’t cause themselves undue stress by unnecessary long travel activities.

So you want to punish disabled people by removing their passports and driving licenses to make an example of them - under a pretence of "so they don't cause themselves undue stress"?

So that no-one is tempted to fake a disability?

But it's ok if disabled people are collateral damage in your disincentivization scheme and have their human rights taken away?

You don't really consider disabled people fully human, do you? You are transparent about that.

Not every disabled person can pass the medical required to get a driving license, that's how the cookie crumbles. But if someone can safely drive who are you to remove their license?

Honeychickpea · 25/12/2023 20:08

Perhaps they are all "signed off with stress" as is so frequently advised on Mumsnet.

Crispedia · 25/12/2023 19:57

I have seen one study estimate 1.4% of people with covid may develop long covid and perhaps 10% of that 1.4% develop a form of long covid that has some overlapping symptoms with ME. As so many catch covid this still translates into a few thousand at least. (It is estimated 20,000 children have ME). As said above, some with the form of LC that shares some overlapping symptoms with ME are thankfully recovering after a year or so but still a fair few still disabled by it 3 years on.

Fatigue is listed as a long covid symptom but for those who have a form of long covid (LC is an umbrella term) that has some overlapping symptoms with ME, it is, like ME, not fatigue that can reduce daily functioning so considerably, but post exertional symptom exacerbation (PESE) or PEM. ‘Fatigue’ doesn’t capture this feature of the illness at all, but too many articles and studies on LC list this aspect as solely fatigue.

Post-exertional symptom exacerbation can be triggered by physical, cognitive, mental, social or emotional exertions, and varies among different people. The worsening of symptoms by exertion can happen immediately, or can happen 24-72 hours after exertion. This can make it difficult to predict or manage. It can take days, weeks or even months to recover from post-exertional symptom exacerbation. The exhaustion caused by exertion can be very disabling, as it can affect different symptoms or parts of the body. Post-exertional symptom exacerbation is a feature of the inability to produce sufficient energy on demand and is characteristic among those with Myalgic Encephalomyelitis / Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS).

This is a good video interviewing ME doctors on post exertional symptom exacerbation (PESE)/post exertional malaise (PEM) for anyone interested. For the mildly affected a short walk may trigger PESE for the most severely affecting turning over in bed can trigger it. PESE as well as draining you of all energy triggers flu like symptoms and you can feel ghastly ill with increased sensory sensitivity. ‘Fatigue’ doesn’t capture the illness at all. www.dialogues-mecfs.co.uk/films/post-exertional-malaise/

Post-Exertional Malaise

https://www.dialogues-mecfs.co.uk/films/post-exertional-malaise/

AppleChristsBirthdayMacchiato · 25/12/2023 19:53

DonnaBanana · 25/12/2023 15:41

ME is essentially a disability as well as a disease and should be treated with the same respect. No one tells a blind or deaf person to try harder do they? They need to rest as long as needed to improve or potentially forever if that’s how their condition works out. At the same time they should probably have their passports and driving licenses taken away so they don’t cause themselves undue stress by unnecessary long travel activities.

This is obviously a joke/spoof, right?

No one could seriously be advocating stripping disabled people of basic human rights and treating them like convicted criminals.

Crispedia · 25/12/2023 19:24

At the same time they should probably have their passports and driving licenses taken away so they don’t cause themselves undue stress by unnecessary long travel activities.

Blimey, I have been too sick now with ME to travel abroad for 19 years. Between years 2 and 6 of ME I managed 2 trips abroad using disability assistance. I would be horrified the state taking away my passport, awful suggestion!

Neitheronethingnortheother · 25/12/2023 17:22

lljkk · 25/12/2023 16:20

I'd love to know the fuller story behind the autism/epilepsy/sight/hearing line !

Yeah, me too, I want to know more, but still, none of those are the headliner LC symptoms either, so still not shoe-horning into "lots of people have LC" belief.

I looked hard (for 5 minutes) for original report to see what the details were, but didn't find it. Hearing & seeing lead the list, you'd think they were dominant reasons. Does everyone suddenly have NF2? I'd love someone to find the original analysis.

I think the article says the figures come from the ONS labour force study.

That would be the labour force study that suspended its results in October 2023 due to data quality concerns whilst it did some "experimental statisitics" to try to resolve the data issues and admits that the respondants from the 16-24 age bracket were under represented, along with renters.

lljkk · 25/12/2023 16:20

I'd love to know the fuller story behind the autism/epilepsy/sight/hearing line !

Yeah, me too, I want to know more, but still, none of those are the headliner LC symptoms either, so still not shoe-horning into "lots of people have LC" belief.

I looked hard (for 5 minutes) for original report to see what the details were, but didn't find it. Hearing & seeing lead the list, you'd think they were dominant reasons. Does everyone suddenly have NF2? I'd love someone to find the original analysis.

To be shocked that over half a million people under the age of 35 are out of work due to long-term sickness

DonnaBanana · 25/12/2023 15:41

ME is essentially a disability as well as a disease and should be treated with the same respect. No one tells a blind or deaf person to try harder do they? They need to rest as long as needed to improve or potentially forever if that’s how their condition works out. At the same time they should probably have their passports and driving licenses taken away so they don’t cause themselves undue stress by unnecessary long travel activities.

RidingMyBike · 25/12/2023 15:36

Thinking about a couple of people I know who will never be able to work because of severe disability and learning disability - either they were born very prematurely or perhaps once wouldn't have survived birth or their first year because of genetic problems or an extremely difficult birth. Medical advances mean they have survived which is amazing for them but they need round the clock care which will continue for their entire lives. And sadly their families have had to fight and fight to get that support.

Crispedia · 25/12/2023 14:33

Thank you that is v kind of you @Kirstyshine As well as the illness itself, the gaslighting from much of the medical world for years was v difficult. People with ME were wrongly told they should be expected to return to health after a course of counselling and graded exercise therapy. Due to the energy dysfunction in ME exercise makes us worse, sometimes permanently. Cruel advice.

NICE guidelines for ME finally dropped recommending graded exercise in 2021 and better awareness by doctors is slowly happening but still a way to go. It was clear that the same group of psychs (one was knighted a Sir) that harmfully dominated ME for so long have been trying to wrongly frame LC as behavioural too. However, there are more doctors globally doing biomedical research revealing pathophysiology (showing in patients with ME too) this time so don’t think they will succeed this time v thankfully.

Sadandhopeless · 25/12/2023 14:12

Hi just seen your post. The g.p is talking rubbish. I have problems with my back, sictica and arthritis, came on in jan this year. I've had two mri scans, physio and I'm under the pain clinic, hoping the different injections will help. I get pain relief prescribed by my g.p

Kirstyshine · 25/12/2023 14:09

Oh my God, Crispedia, I’m so sorry to hear what you’re going through.

Crispedia · 25/12/2023 14:05

I got ME when I was 27 and haven’t been able to work since. I am now 52 and have been bedridden for the last ten years with severe ME. I have missed out on a career, family, social life and more.

A form of long covid has some overlapping symptoms with ME (a virus usually triggers ME). It’s heartbreaking seeing online many young people significantly disabled by long covid. Some are recovering after a year or so but still a sizeable number still v ill 3 years on. Only around 5% of people with ME make full recoveries. Whilst covid continues in the population more young people will develop LC. There are no effective biomedical treatments for ME, at it has been under researched due to it being wrongly framed until v recently as a mainly behavioural condition and not the medical chronic disease it is. If there had been these treatments, they may have helped those with LC that presents similar to ME.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 25/12/2023 11:01

lljkk · 25/12/2023 07:24

re age 16-34, this chart tells a story not same as what a lot of PP are suggesting. I don't see an obvious group for Long Covid, for instance, and the increase trend in musculo-skeletal is barely discernable.

MH increase has been steady rate since 2014, the trend is consistent for last 10 years.
The big covid-era jump was in allergy-hearing-sight-epilepsy-autism.

Did anyone else know that autism increased suddenly in 2020?

I think it’s something to do with the increasing recognition of female autism.

My dd was diagnosed ASD end of last year at 16. I always thought there was something, but she didn’t fit the male criteria. So when she was little she never lined things up,she smiled, maintained eye contact, was an early and articulate talker, and mixed easily. She would just have awful meltdowns after school. Age 9 she became increasingly anxious. This is often the first thing ASd girls present with. But she was just diagnosed with anxiety.

She seemed to function fine in every way until 14 or so.

EilonwyWithRedGoldHair · 25/12/2023 10:57

FriedasCarLoad · 24/12/2023 19:27

I wonder whether there's inconsistency in the PIP assessments.

I have known so many people (2 dozen?) who seem so clearly unable to work through serious disability, but who have struggled to have this recognised, even at the appeal stage.

I know one person (well, knew until a couple of years ago) who was on PIP and I think should have been working part time. She turned up to get voluntary week with only a slightly above average number of sick days and ran a small business from home. Each time a psychiatrist suggested that paid work might benefit her mental health she refused to see them again. Honestly, I think she's more the victim in this because I agree with those psychiatrists. I knew her very well but could obviously nevertheless be completely wrong.

I have a similar condition to her. I haven't applied for PIP. my psychiatrist says she's fairly confident I'd be awarded it on appeal. I'm a SAHM. The extra money would be really useful, but I think I honestly could manage a job (part time at least). It would give me a far less happy lifestyle but I believe all households should look after themselves as far as possible, not least so they have some to share with people in need.

It seems narrow minded to dismiss all those describing skivers as thick right-wingers who are misinformed. And it seems equally narrow minded plus lacking in compassion to assume that those who are saying how incredibly hard it can be to get PIP are naïve. Maybe we all know different people... And so many people live in social bubbles.

PIP can be claimed by people who work. It's meant to cover some of the extra costs caused by disability.

TigerRag · 25/12/2023 10:49

"They meet elements of the diagnostic criteria. As does every person on this planet, depending on each person's interpretation of those criteria."

Huh? I'm guessing you haven't actually read the criteria properly?

OfcourseitsaNC · 25/12/2023 10:31

I know GPs can't diagnose autism @Willyoujustbequiet The GP had to do the referral to the CDC, as the school wouldn't. The GP was told all the right things for the referral.

I don't know where you are in the country, but the CDC only did one assessment. The private ed psych report was written the way the relative wanted them to write it, as is often the way with private reports customers pay for.

They meet elements of the diagnostic criteria. As does every person on this planet, depending on each person's interpretation of those criteria.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the relative is certainly able to work.

Startingagainandagain · 25/12/2023 10:31

I think the people interviewed by the Guardian give a good insight into some of the issues.

Employers and their lack of understanding and flexibility when it comes to people with long term health conditions is a one of the biggest problems.

I had endometriosis/adenomyosis which caused me chronic pain & such heavy bleeding that I could not even leave the house (I ended up having a hysterectomy). Some employers made my life hell when I was really struggling with my the conditions and I ended having to leave two jobs because of it.

Same thing with my mental health issues (I am autistic and have a long history of depression). Instead of being supporting I have had employers who made my conditions worse because of their lack of understanding and unwillingness to put in place reasonable adjustments and they added stress that could have been avoided on top of my existing issues.

I had a severe breakdown a few months ago and was under the care of the crisis team because I was suicidal. When I felt well enough to go back to work my GP gave me a fit note suggesting reasonable adjustment. On my first day back my manager pressured me to ignored the GP's recommendations...how is that helpful to someone who has been through the dreadful experience of considering taking their life?

I actually think that it is not a bad idea to champion home working for people with disabilities/long term health conditions but that means changing employers' attitudes and putting the right to flexibility and home working in law.

With the caveat that of course some people will not be able to work no matter what support is offered and should not be penalised.

Original poster

puncheur · 25/12/2023 10:26

KissTheRains · 25/12/2023 10:11

Roughly there's 37.5 Million people that are working age in the UK.

560k is a big number for sure, but in the overall bigger picture of the population and those of working age
560k is barely 1.5% of working age and less than 1% of overall population.

Now if it was nearer to 15% I'd be concerned.

It’s 4% of what should be the healthiest cohort though, that’s the concerning aspect.

OP posts:

Willyoujustbequiet · 25/12/2023 10:22

OfcourseitsaNC · 24/12/2023 19:28

I'm with you about the piss takers @jollywhite

A 26 yr old relative is on DLA and PIP for their "Autism". They have a blue badge too.

Having regularly looked after the relative for periods of time from birth, I would not support the ASC diagnosis.

The things they told the GP that put them on the spectrum are things that they found on the internet and exaggerated when asked by any professionals. School never supported them going forward for a diagnosis, as they didn't see it at all. They were only diagnosed aged 19.

Relative had a part time job for a few months. The company didn't make reasonable adjustments for their disability (aka refused to pay a full days wage for 10.30am-2pm days), so they decided work wasn't for them.

Back on the internet they went, and discovered how to be successful getting their PIP/DLA/Blue Badge claim through. They talked to a friend who worked for DWP about how to answer correctly to get the maximum amount. They've been on full benefits for four years now. They're married to someone on a £50k wage who has inherited a house.

I was disgusted to pop in for a Christmas drink last week and to hear them boasting about their brand new car, which I saw had a personalised number plate on my way out.

It made me so cross for all the money wasted on them opting out of a working life and being paid for it, for all the people who need DLA and get refused as they're too poorly to complete the forms and do as much prep for the interview as my relative did. I was also so very very cross that my tax was paying for it.

I decided I need to back away from them now. Their lifestyle choice has made me too cross.

Gp's can't diagnose autism.

It involves a very thorough assessment over months by a multi disciplinary team of wide ranging professionals.

And the waiting list to get this is years long.

Either your relative is a wonderful actor worthy of an Oscar or the more obvious explanation is that they actually do meet the diagnostic criteria.

Blippty · 25/12/2023 10:13

@Octavia64 I have a very similar story regarding Hashis. Being untreated (and not taken seriously) for over a decade has led to irreversible chronic illness and disability. Had symptoms since my teens but not textbook symptoms so wasn't tested until a lot later in life. The damage was done.