Page 18 | To be annoyed by SIL making these comments towards my DD

nhd · 2023-12-15T15:00:43+00:00

SIL is very much a feminist, very woke etc but to the extreme. My DD is 3. DD is the first grandchild to ILs and first niece / nephew to my SIL. (I think) she wants to remain child free at least for now, so she sees DD as her closest small person. SIL and PIL want to take an active part in the upbringing of my DD which I'm not necessarily against - the more loving people a child is surrounded by the better in my view. SIL and I aren't very close but we have a good relationship in that we get on when we are together but wouldn't choose to hang out as a 2 without my DH or wouldn't share deep personal secrets. All this is to say that SIL is a nice person, loves DD and doesn't make these comments maliciously I think, but they still really really irritate me and I think they're harmful. Comments that she will make: Eg1. We are discussing schools and I mentioned in passing mixed / single sex secondary school and dating boys. SIL instantly comments "or girls if she chooses to date them!" Eg2. SIL comes over and DD shows her some biscuits that we made that afternoon whilst DH was at football. SIL "you know, just because you're a girl doesn't mean you need to stay home and bake. You could have gone to football with Daddy if you wanted" (DD was excited to bake, she has never expressed any interest in football). Eg3. I am helping my daughter to put on a dress (gave her a choice of 2, she picked this one) before we go to a family function. SIL comes in (we don't live together but we were driving her there so she came to our house first) and DD runs to hug her but as we've got to leave, after a few mins, I say "come on, let's finish getting dressed, you'll look so pretty". At this point DD is wearing a stained vest, PJ bottoms and one sock. SIL "that's okay, you don't have to look pretty for anyone. You look how you like! Would you like to go like this?" I'm all for giving kids choices but surely I can at least encourage my daughter to wear clean clothes and dress up for occasions? Of course I'd let her wear something else if she didn't like a dress but why put ideas in her head? Eg4. And the "you don't have to look pretty for anyone" is an ongoing thing. I was once putting on make up before heading out for date night, SIL came over to babysit. DD started copying me, pretending to put on make up, then came up to the mirror and said "wow so pretty, like mummy!" SIL once again said to her "but remember, you don't have to ever try to put on make up or change yourself to impress a man"

Didimum · 15/12/2023 20:11

saraclara · 15/12/2023 20:08

The child's mum has an engineering degree. I'm going to assume that she has an inkling about being exposed to the same choices that males are, and bucking expectations.

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Your parent is not your sole or necessarily leading source of influence, especially when it comes to gender socialisation.

BethDuttonsTwin · 15/12/2023 20:08

Nt1993 · 15/12/2023 16:58

@BethDuttonsTwin As a bisexual person who is now 30 - in a heteronormative relationship with another bisexual 31 year old who I met at my workplace - I disagree. I spent my 20s in a large city where people are less hateful and for example at my place of work a large portion of people are queer. I have some friends who don’t talk about it and hide their sexuality because of the worry of hate or judgement. I fooled around with both genders since my teenage years and kept it under strict secret until the past few years as it’s way more accepted and I’m a grown ass woman who can accept the small amount of judgemental people.

The statistic taken was not exclusively attracted to the opposite sex, whereas the amount of gen z who identify as straight was 70% That leaves a 20% gap of people who identify publicly as straight but also do not feel exclusively attracted to the opposite sex. So there is no “agenda” to look unique as you feel. The norm is that a huge portion of the public are not just attracted to one gender or the opposite gender.

You’re in an Echo Chamber. You’re fully subscribed to current social trends and as such have surrounded yourself with those who share your views and beliefs.

”I spent my 20s in a large city where people are less hateful”

Where? I’m in London, have been for twenty years and my experience is directly opposite to yours. Everyone I know is rolling their eyes at “Queerness” some are actively offended by having their same sex attraction and love co-opted and labelled thus by Spicy Straights 😁.

I didn’t say there was an “agenda” so I am not sure why that’s in quotation marks? I said there’s huge social currency to be gained from declaring oneself “queer” and that is true. Some have even called this a Social Contagion. I do not mean to suggest this applies to you, you sound older for a start, but it is certainly true among young people and as I have two cynical and eye rolling teenagers and numerous teenagers within my extended family, with lots of mates I feel fairly confident in asserting this.

It’s good that there is increased acceptance around non heteronormativity - I completely applaud it. But it simply isn’t possible to confidently assert as you have, that 20% of people are now and have always been attracted to multiple sexes on the basis of one study and your own anecdotal evidence. Such claims can have no weight when the concept of “Queerness” is so questionable/controversial but holds such value in gaining attention/plaudits for any young person who claims to be such, and when it is clearly, largely social media driven - a pretty recent technology that most of us let our youngsters roam about on completely unsupervised.

saraclara · 15/12/2023 20:08

Didimum · 15/12/2023 19:57

I’m with your SIL, and I think from your comments you could take a leaf out of her book.

So why not let her enjoy what she enjoys without bringing her gender into it?

Because you appear to be forgetting (or not aware) how girls and boys are socialised and the barrage of indirect influence they receive throughout the day from media, other adults, other children etc. It seems you are saying that unless it’s obvious, then it’s not harmful and/or influential, which is not the case. Children need to hear things quite explicitly to have any chance of combatting these indirect influences.

The football is a very good example. She likely has no interest in football because she is indirectly influenced to understand that it is not a girls activity. It’s cool if she doesn’t want to go to the football, but hearing that she can and being offered regularly is an important thing for her to have in her scope of influences.

Edited

The child's mum has an engineering degree. I'm going to assume that she has an inkling about being exposed to the same choices that males are, and bucking expectations.

Snugglemonkey · 15/12/2023 20:06

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 15:43

Your daughter is three not thirteen. She'll have plenty of years to learn about empowerment

If you are leaving empowerment and equality until they’re 13, then good luck on producing a confident, well rounded daughter

Indeed. By 13, that ship has sailed.

poetryandwine · 15/12/2023 20:05

Hereforthebunfights · 15/12/2023 19:49

Ah I see, so my disabilities make me not a feminist.

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My apologies, @Hereforthebunfights

You surely know I was thinking about stereotypical situations of women who let their employability skills lapse if this then affects the dynamic of their marriages, rather than women with disabilities. But it was not sensitive.

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 20:05

Didimum · 15/12/2023 19:57

I’m with your SIL, and I think from your comments you could take a leaf out of her book.

So why not let her enjoy what she enjoys without bringing her gender into it?

Because you appear to be forgetting (or not aware) how girls and boys are socialised and the barrage of indirect influence they receive throughout the day from media, other adults, other children etc. It seems you are saying that unless it’s obvious, then it’s not harmful and/or influential, which is not the case. Children need to hear things quite explicitly to have any chance of combatting these indirect influences.

The football is a very good example. She likely has no interest in football because she is indirectly influenced to understand that it is not a girls activity. It’s cool if she doesn’t want to go to the football, but hearing that she can and being offered regularly is an important thing for her to have in her scope of influences.

Edited

Exactly.

Boys and girls are socialised differently from day dot due to how ingrained sexism is within our society.

Boys are encouraged to like football
Girls are encouraged to be 'pretty'.

Didimum · 15/12/2023 19:57

I’m with your SIL, and I think from your comments you could take a leaf out of her book.

So why not let her enjoy what she enjoys without bringing her gender into it?

Because you appear to be forgetting (or not aware) how girls and boys are socialised and the barrage of indirect influence they receive throughout the day from media, other adults, other children etc. It seems you are saying that unless it’s obvious, then it’s not harmful and/or influential, which is not the case. Children need to hear things quite explicitly to have any chance of combatting these indirect influences.

The football is a very good example. She likely has no interest in football because she is indirectly influenced to understand that it is not a girls activity. It’s cool if she doesn’t want to go to the football, but hearing that she can and being offered regularly is an important thing for her to have in her scope of influences.

housethatbuiltme · 15/12/2023 19:57

I never wear make up day to day (why would I waste time just to do the school run, shopping etc...), barely ever shave (takes ages, irritates my skin and I'm resentful men don't have to but I'm expected too) and never wear a bra.

I feel fuck all need to apologist for looking how I look... I still get dressed up for date nights and events. I do so for ME because occasionally its nice to dress up and feel 'pretty'. Not feeling like a swamp snot when you want a fun night is not 'for men/others'.

My DD is 2 and EXCEPTIONALLY girly, no idea where she gets it from, her favorite game in 'nail salon' and I have never been to one in my life. Don't even know how she discovered doing nails. I'm not going to force her not to be 'girly' though ffs.

If anything her 'girly-ness' is fucking fierce. God forbid you put the pink polkadot sock on instead of the lavender floral one and if she doesn't want to wear it she WON'T (hell or high water couldn't force it on her). The other day I accidentally got her some blue trousers, I was quickly corrected that only pink trousers will do this week. She will be naked, tantruming or in her pink trousers that she picked, nothing else is an option. Trust me she is NOT doing it 'for anyone else'.

Snugglemonkey · 15/12/2023 19:56

I am with SIL tbh.

StBrides · 15/12/2023 19:56

The messaging from your SIL is fab.

Egs 1 & 4 - I'd be really pleased shed said exactly that

Egs 2 & 3, great message, poorly delivered because they were delivered in a way which seemd to undermine you / be a dig. I'd have to say something but would think carefully about tone and words to make sure she understood where I was coming from and get board with it, while not taking offence

teoma · 15/12/2023 19:55

SIL is obviously involved and loving presence . But ultimately, you’re the parent and if you don’t feel comfortable with some of her remarks, it’s up to you to reaffirm your boundaries.

ThePenguinIsDrunk · 15/12/2023 19:55

I think you're being a bit unreasonable. Sounds like your SIL is just trying to counter all the sex stereotyping around (and that's not what 'woke' means).
and she has a really good point about being the dating thing too.

stayathomer · 15/12/2023 19:53

The dating comments impress a man is ridiculous for that age group, yadnbu!!

Tandora · 15/12/2023 19:53

CHRIS003 · 15/12/2023 19:49

So if op listened to her SIL and stead of dressing her to go out to the
party she left her in her dirty vest and pj bottoms with one sock.
I think there would be a few concerns about ops parenting lol!!
If she listened to SIL - She would have got a visit from social services !

She didn’t have to put her in a dress though, and tell her that she should wear it so she “looks pretty”. I really don’t understand some of the party dresses mums put their young girls in. Kids at that age like to run around, the best parties have bouncy castles, why on earth put them in such impractical clothing that’s going to restrict their ability to be fully mobile and have fun.

echt · 15/12/2023 19:50

The SIL's heart is in the right place, but the immediacy, bordering on corrective following on in the examples given is a PITA. I agree with what she says, but her timing's shit.

Hereforthebunfights · 15/12/2023 19:49

poetryandwine · 15/12/2023 19:19

Certainly a SAHM can be a feminist, although I don’t think many are.

An SAHM who could not support herself and her DC if required, an SAHM without equal access to the family money - I am hard pressed to call these women feminists, although perhaps I am missing something. But a parent who has chosen to spend some time intensely involved with childrearing and taking charge of the home for the benefit of all, with the funds to do this right and her partner’s respect, is in a powerful position. She can model feminism for her DC

It wouldn’t be my choice but I respect it. It seems pretty rare.

Ah I see, so my disabilities make me not a feminist.

itsmylife7 · 15/12/2023 19:49

Nanny0gg · 15/12/2023 19:20

But the OP SiL isn't doing that. So not the same

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Did I say it was the same ?

I was giving an example of how girls are treated differently from a very early age.

The sil sounds great.

CHRIS003 · 15/12/2023 19:49

So if op listened to her SIL and stead of dressing her to go out to the
party she left her in her dirty vest and pj bottoms with one sock.
I think there would be a few concerns about ops parenting lol!!
If she listened to SIL - She would have got a visit from social services !

Tandora · 15/12/2023 19:48

poetryandwine · 15/12/2023 19:19

Certainly a SAHM can be a feminist, although I don’t think many are.

An SAHM who could not support herself and her DC if required, an SAHM without equal access to the family money - I am hard pressed to call these women feminists, although perhaps I am missing something. But a parent who has chosen to spend some time intensely involved with childrearing and taking charge of the home for the benefit of all, with the funds to do this right and her partner’s respect, is in a powerful position. She can model feminism for her DC

It wouldn’t be my choice but I respect it. It seems pretty rare.

An SAHM who could not support herself and her DC if required, an SAHM without equal access to the family money

these are odd statements. Having (independent) money doesnt define feminism and the second part sounds a bit victim-blamey. Theres nothing inherently antifeminist about pooling resources with a partner, dividing labour, and taking on a particular role in that division of labour. I think where it becomes anti feminist is where there is a justification of inequalities based on a belief in the natural, inferior status of women. Unfortunately this often is the case where men and women take on traditional roles, because traditionally women were seen as inferior to men and their different roles were understood as naturally reflecting that inferiority. But it doesn’t have to be that way in a modern relationships.

sorry a bit of a word salad, it’s getting late 😂

LuckySantangelo35 · 15/12/2023 19:48

AnonnyMouseDave · 15/12/2023 15:12

If you're bringing DD up to be some kind of Disney Princess then I love your SIL and she is doing the right thing. Or if you are a fake tan / make-up always / lip filler type person.

If you're doing a decent job of ensuring that DD can wear nice dresses if she wants, but knows that being a tomboy is equally acceptable, then YANBU and SIL is going a bit OTT.

IMO

@AnonnyMouseDave

“Or if you are a fake tan / make-up always / lip filler type person”

What are you trying to say? That you can’t be a feminist and still like those things?
if so, you might want to check your prejudices

ActDottie · 15/12/2023 19:44

I think SIL is setting a really good example.

Gladrags1234 · 15/12/2023 19:40

MsRosley · 15/12/2023 19:29

You're not annoying at all. And words are very important to me too.

I think it's really tough for girls growing up in such a looks-oriented society, and whatever reassurance and confidence we can instil in our daughters as a bulwark against all the insecurity to come is a gift we should never shrink from giving. It's slightly less important in sons, because society isn't so hard on them looks-wise, but I still tell mine they look handsome, especially when they've clearly made an effort.

Hell, we even tell old women they look gorgeous when they've had their hair done or whatever. It's a kindness, something nice we do for people. Everyone loves to feel they're presenting their best face to the world, and to have other people's appreciation reflected back to them.

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I agree with you.

It honestly seems as though there is a lot of black and white thinking in the replies.

Yes, girls need to hear the message that they can do things.

At the same time, most people like to hear that they look lovely.

I tried to give similar messages to my sons and my daughters. It can be much more relaxed than some posters here are saying. I have been known to tell my daughters they look handsome, and i told my son he looked 'pretty' on his wedding day. With love and gentle humour.

They all know they can do pretty much anything, and that their mum thinks they are beautiful, and that they can love anyone they choose.

I quite like SIL's ideals, but seems OP has got it pretty much covered, and without being a twat about it!

cosmicfig · 15/12/2023 19:38

You are her mother. SIL needs to back off a little. She means well and her intentions are good but you know your daughter better than she does.

Naptrappedmummy · 15/12/2023 19:36

Meowandthen · 15/12/2023 19:17

Then I trust you compliment her for other things. Ones not related to appearance.

The issue is the expectation that girls have to be pretty to get approval. There needs to be positive comments on behaviour, achievements, attitude etc too as a balance.

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Did I say I don’t comment on those things?

Snowdogsmitten · 15/12/2023 19:36

pinkfun · 15/12/2023 18:55

@YaWeeFurryBastard but if a man is a SAHP then he's lazy right? Men can't win can they?

Why can’t we have a thread that touches upon feminism without men being randomly shoehorned in as victims?!