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Original poster

To be annoyed by SIL making these comments towards my DD

785 replies

nhd · 15/12/2023 15:00

SIL is very much a feminist, very woke etc but to the extreme. My DD is 3.

DD is the first grandchild to ILs and first niece / nephew to my SIL. (I think) she wants to remain child free at least for now, so she sees DD as her closest small person. SIL and PIL want to take an active part in the upbringing of my DD which I'm not necessarily against - the more loving people a child is surrounded by the better in my view. SIL and I aren't very close but we have a good relationship in that we get on when we are together but wouldn't choose to hang out as a 2 without my DH or wouldn't share deep personal secrets. All this is to say that SIL is a nice person, loves DD and doesn't make these comments maliciously I think, but they still really really irritate me and I think they're harmful.

Comments that she will make:
Eg1. We are discussing schools and I mentioned in passing mixed / single sex secondary school and dating boys. SIL instantly comments "or girls if she chooses to date them!"
Eg2. SIL comes over and DD shows her some biscuits that we made that afternoon whilst DH was at football. SIL "you know, just because you're a girl doesn't mean you need to stay home and bake. You could have gone to football with Daddy if you wanted" (DD was excited to bake, she has never expressed any interest in football).
Eg3. I am helping my daughter to put on a dress (gave her a choice of 2, she picked this one) before we go to a family function. SIL comes in (we don't live together but we were driving her there so she came to our house first) and DD runs to hug her but as we've got to leave, after a few mins, I say "come on, let's finish getting dressed, you'll look so pretty". At this point DD is wearing a stained vest, PJ bottoms and one sock. SIL "that's okay, you don't have to look pretty for anyone. You look how you like! Would you like to go like this?" I'm all for giving kids choices but surely I can at least encourage my daughter to wear clean clothes and dress up for occasions? Of course I'd let her wear something else if she didn't like a dress but why put ideas in her head?
Eg4. And the "you don't have to look pretty for anyone" is an ongoing thing. I was once putting on make up before heading out for date night, SIL came over to babysit. DD started copying me, pretending to put on make up, then came up to the mirror and said "wow so pretty, like mummy!" SIL once again said to her "but remember, you don't have to ever try to put on make up or change yourself to impress a man"

OP posts:
LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 21:59

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 21:47

The expectation that childcare costs only come from the woman's salary is anti feminist. Childcare costs should be shared.

The expectation that it is only a choice a woman should make and the husband usually is all for her to stay home but won't do it himself also says a lot.

Ultimately, of course a couple is going to do what they believe is best for their individual family but just because it is a choice, it doesn't magically make it a feminist choice.

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OK I’ll simplify it.
Most men earn more than women because gender pay gap

Wife earns £1,800 a month
Husband earns £2,500 a month

They have a baby.

Nursery would cost £1,500 a month (and would also be expensive if wife wanted to go PT). Then there’s the cost of fuel to nursery and work costs - lunches, clothing, etc. So it’s basically not worth the woman working, and as she earns less she is the logical SAHP choice. What kind of batshit people would say “For the sake of being out of pocket every month, let’s take one for the feminists”.

Everyday family decisions should not and do not get made on the basis of “is it good for feminism”. This is called the real world, where people do what’s best for their fa likes and give very few shots of some rando on MN thinks it’s a good feminist choice or not.

Who gives a fuck if it doesn’t serve feminism. Expecting women’s o always be Good Feminists (even defying what’s right for their family) is, ironically, bad feminism . I’m a feminist and it’s largely about choice and agency IMO. Having the choice to do what is right for you is not anti-feminist

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 21:56

Tacotortoise · 15/12/2023 21:40

I guess it would depend on whether you attach any value to childcare or home making and, if so, how much? I don't see why doing either of those things would make one lesser, except that, in a patriarchal society, they are valued less than work for money. But being a feminist I reject the patriachy.

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The issue is the consequences it has for society as a whole, especially because it is almost always women who give up their careers or go part time which makes them financially vulnerable, not to mention other issues such as the gender pay gap.

It also teaches children that childcare and housework = women's work and having a career = men's work which is problematic.

How is any of that feminist?

Didimum · 15/12/2023 21:52

nhd · 15/12/2023 21:20

As I've mentioned before on this thread I took her to football (her boy cousin was playing), asked her if she wants to also play. She said no and didn't enjoy watching, asked to eat her snacks and then wanted to leave.

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I'm not sure what you're looking for here. You seem to have made up your mind already and are quite vehemently disagreeing with any differing opinions rather than enter into any meaningful discussion about your parenting style or alternative opinions on your SIL's behaviour. So what's the point?

coldcallerbaiter · 15/12/2023 21:48

Dd is not the child of the SIL,
plus looking scruffy in a stained vest? No.

Having pride in your appearance is a good thing.

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 21:47

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 21:39

So what.

Get real - when assessing if a woman wants to be a SAHM do you actually expect them to say “Well I know that by me going back to work we’d actually be out of pocket by the time we pay for childcare costs - but darling think of the feminist agenda! I’d much rather work for nothing than not support my fellow sisters”

THAT expectation in itself is very anti-feminist

Show quote history

The expectation that childcare costs only come from the woman's salary is anti feminist. Childcare costs should be shared.

The expectation that it is only a choice a woman should make and the husband usually is all for her to stay home but won't do it himself also says a lot.

Ultimately, of course a couple is going to do what they believe is best for their individual family but just because it is a choice, it doesn't magically make it a feminist choice.

Tacotortoise · 15/12/2023 21:40

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 21:34

Feminism is about equality. How does being a SAHM support equality, especially for women as a whole? It doesn't.

Like I've already said, you can still be a feminist but lets not pretend that being a SAHM is a feminist choice.

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I guess it would depend on whether you attach any value to childcare or home making and, if so, how much? I don't see why doing either of those things would make one lesser, except that, in a patriarchal society, they are valued less than work for money. But being a feminist I reject the patriachy.

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 21:39

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 21:34

Feminism is about equality. How does being a SAHM support equality, especially for women as a whole? It doesn't.

Like I've already said, you can still be a feminist but lets not pretend that being a SAHM is a feminist choice.

Show quote history

So what.

Get real - when assessing if a woman wants to be a SAHM do you actually expect them to say “Well I know that by me going back to work we’d actually be out of pocket by the time we pay for childcare costs - but darling think of the feminist agenda! I’d much rather work for nothing than not support my fellow sisters”

THAT expectation in itself is very anti-feminist

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 21:34

nhd · 15/12/2023 21:06

@SouthLondonMum22 @JustGerroffMe

I earned significantly better than my husband did when we first got together, and we largely lived off my salary when we moved in because sadly medics don't get paid much at the start of their careers. Then his career took off, we decided to have kids and both wanted me to be home caring for our babies whilst they're little.
So, to be a proper feminist, I should go back to work even though it's not what works best for us? I thought feminism was about empowering women to do what they want to do and be who they want to be - whether that's to be a racing driver, a fashion designer or a SAHM!

Feminism is about equality. How does being a SAHM support equality, especially for women as a whole? It doesn't.

Like I've already said, you can still be a feminist but lets not pretend that being a SAHM is a feminist choice.

justasking111 · 15/12/2023 21:22

nhd · 15/12/2023 21:06

@SouthLondonMum22 @JustGerroffMe

I earned significantly better than my husband did when we first got together, and we largely lived off my salary when we moved in because sadly medics don't get paid much at the start of their careers. Then his career took off, we decided to have kids and both wanted me to be home caring for our babies whilst they're little.
So, to be a proper feminist, I should go back to work even though it's not what works best for us? I thought feminism was about empowering women to do what they want to do and be who they want to be - whether that's to be a racing driver, a fashion designer or a SAHM!

👍👍. Hear hear

Original poster
nhd · 15/12/2023 21:20

Didimum · 15/12/2023 19:57

I’m with your SIL, and I think from your comments you could take a leaf out of her book.

So why not let her enjoy what she enjoys without bringing her gender into it?

Because you appear to be forgetting (or not aware) how girls and boys are socialised and the barrage of indirect influence they receive throughout the day from media, other adults, other children etc. It seems you are saying that unless it’s obvious, then it’s not harmful and/or influential, which is not the case. Children need to hear things quite explicitly to have any chance of combatting these indirect influences.

The football is a very good example. She likely has no interest in football because she is indirectly influenced to understand that it is not a girls activity. It’s cool if she doesn’t want to go to the football, but hearing that she can and being offered regularly is an important thing for her to have in her scope of influences.

Edited

As I've mentioned before on this thread I took her to football (her boy cousin was playing), asked her if she wants to also play. She said no and didn't enjoy watching, asked to eat her snacks and then wanted to leave.

OP posts:
Hattie89 · 15/12/2023 21:15

It is so tedious when so many threads become about SAHMs.

Original poster
nhd · 15/12/2023 21:06

@SouthLondonMum22 @JustGerroffMe

I earned significantly better than my husband did when we first got together, and we largely lived off my salary when we moved in because sadly medics don't get paid much at the start of their careers. Then his career took off, we decided to have kids and both wanted me to be home caring for our babies whilst they're little.
So, to be a proper feminist, I should go back to work even though it's not what works best for us? I thought feminism was about empowering women to do what they want to do and be who they want to be - whether that's to be a racing driver, a fashion designer or a SAHM!

OP posts:
LuvSmallDogs · 15/12/2023 20:54

She sounds irritating.

A small child shows you something they enjoyed making, so you say "you could have done something else instead". I have a son who would choose baking over football any day.

Undermining a child's mother trying to put them in clean, maybe slightly special clothes by suggesting they wear inappropriate clothing - imagine if DD had taken her up on it, and you'd have to be the bad guy telling her no!

I'd have a word with her about it, tbh. Tell her that any further critiques on how you dress your child or what activities you do with her can be had between the two of you, and away from your daughter.

FigAndOlive · 15/12/2023 20:54

I’m with you, OP. I’d also be upset, I think certain subjects and controversial themes should be left for the parents to deal whenever and however they deemed age appropriate. I would probably have asked her to step aside politely the first time and then if not effective I would actively avoid her. Rest assured she is very close to start telling your DD she might not feel like a girl, etc. Surely if she really likes her DD she can keep neutral so that she can remain close to her.

DemBonesDemBones · 15/12/2023 20:48

She sounds absolutely brilliant!

Original poster
nhd · 15/12/2023 20:45

@Nanny0gg her job is in copywriting

OP posts:
Original poster
nhd · 15/12/2023 20:39

Anisette · 15/12/2023 18:10

Out of curiosity, are you planning to go back to work, OP?

I plan to do whatever I think suits myself and my family best at any given time :)

Completely irrelevant to the original question so won't bother answering in more detail.

OP posts:
Gladrags1234 · 15/12/2023 20:39

@MsRosley I thought you put it very prettily!

saraclara · 15/12/2023 20:35

CICTGIGF · 15/12/2023 20:19

I’m with your SIL too.
I speak similarly with my own DC. I think it’s important both girls and boys know they don’t have to conform to a stereotype.

Again, do you choose the moment when your child runs to you to show you something that they're proud of, to tell then that they really could have done something else?

MsRosley · 15/12/2023 20:30

They all know they can do pretty much anything, and that their mum thinks they are beautiful, and that they can love anyone they choose.

Thank you, @Gladrags1234 - it's nice to know someone understands what I was trying to express.

TheOccupier · 15/12/2023 20:21

God, SIL sounds irritating - YANBU. The whole thing about dating boys misses the point. DD will be at school with girls either way so if she wants to date them, they will be around!

I am a pretty radical feminist but that doesn't mean shoving my views down everyone's throats, let alone other people's preschoolers. DD will make her own choices and it sounds like you're doing a great job of giving her plenty of options, although you might want to tone down mentions of being "pretty".

Keep an eye out for SIL trying to introduce gender identity nonsense - sounds like she is a likely person to believe in that.

Tandora · 15/12/2023 20:21

housethatbuiltme · 15/12/2023 19:57

I never wear make up day to day (why would I waste time just to do the school run, shopping etc...), barely ever shave (takes ages, irritates my skin and I'm resentful men don't have to but I'm expected too) and never wear a bra.

I feel fuck all need to apologist for looking how I look... I still get dressed up for date nights and events. I do so for ME because occasionally its nice to dress up and feel 'pretty'. Not feeling like a swamp snot when you want a fun night is not 'for men/others'.

My DD is 2 and EXCEPTIONALLY girly, no idea where she gets it from, her favorite game in 'nail salon' and I have never been to one in my life. Don't even know how she discovered doing nails. I'm not going to force her not to be 'girly' though ffs.

If anything her 'girly-ness' is fucking fierce. God forbid you put the pink polkadot sock on instead of the lavender floral one and if she doesn't want to wear it she WON'T (hell or high water couldn't force it on her). The other day I accidentally got her some blue trousers, I was quickly corrected that only pink trousers will do this week. She will be naked, tantruming or in her pink trousers that she picked, nothing else is an option. Trust me she is NOT doing it 'for anyone else'.

I love this post and fully agree with the points you make. However, I don’t think it is so relevant to the OP’s situation.

in the case of the OP- It doesn’t seem to be a case where DD is spontaneously expressing her fierce femininity, rather more a situation where the parents are mindlessly modelling archetypal and bland gender stereotypes. Mum stays home and cooks and bakes cookies with DD, while daddy goes off to work and to the football. Mum worries about her DD’s future in a mixed school incase she gets distracted by the boys (because obviously her pretty little girl will be heterosexual). Mum puts DD in girly outfits and dresses to go to parties and encourages her to comply by reinforcing that she will look “pretty” (communicating that being pretty is valuable and aspirational for a little girl , etc etc).

it sounds like SIL is just trying to compensate for some of this conditioning, rather than trying to force DD to be something she’s not.

CICTGIGF · 15/12/2023 20:19

I’m with your SIL too.
I speak similarly with my own DC. I think it’s important both girls and boys know they don’t have to conform to a stereotype.

Didimum · 15/12/2023 20:17

echt · 15/12/2023 20:13

While not the sole influence, they are the leading one. Influence doesn't mean to be like someone, it can mean to put someone off.

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Yet unfortunately OP doesn’t seem to be aware of how her attitude compounds gender socialisation.

echt · 15/12/2023 20:13

Didimum · 15/12/2023 20:11

Your parent is not your sole or necessarily leading source of influence, especially when it comes to gender socialisation.

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While not the sole influence, they are the leading one. Influence doesn't mean to be like someone, it can mean to put someone off.