Page 16 | To be annoyed by SIL making these comments towards my DD

nhd · 2023-12-15T15:00:43+00:00

SIL is very much a feminist, very woke etc but to the extreme. My DD is 3. DD is the first grandchild to ILs and first niece / nephew to my SIL. (I think) she wants to remain child free at least for now, so she sees DD as her closest small person. SIL and PIL want to take an active part in the upbringing of my DD which I'm not necessarily against - the more loving people a child is surrounded by the better in my view. SIL and I aren't very close but we have a good relationship in that we get on when we are together but wouldn't choose to hang out as a 2 without my DH or wouldn't share deep personal secrets. All this is to say that SIL is a nice person, loves DD and doesn't make these comments maliciously I think, but they still really really irritate me and I think they're harmful. Comments that she will make: Eg1. We are discussing schools and I mentioned in passing mixed / single sex secondary school and dating boys. SIL instantly comments "or girls if she chooses to date them!" Eg2. SIL comes over and DD shows her some biscuits that we made that afternoon whilst DH was at football. SIL "you know, just because you're a girl doesn't mean you need to stay home and bake. You could have gone to football with Daddy if you wanted" (DD was excited to bake, she has never expressed any interest in football). Eg3. I am helping my daughter to put on a dress (gave her a choice of 2, she picked this one) before we go to a family function. SIL comes in (we don't live together but we were driving her there so she came to our house first) and DD runs to hug her but as we've got to leave, after a few mins, I say "come on, let's finish getting dressed, you'll look so pretty". At this point DD is wearing a stained vest, PJ bottoms and one sock. SIL "that's okay, you don't have to look pretty for anyone. You look how you like! Would you like to go like this?" I'm all for giving kids choices but surely I can at least encourage my daughter to wear clean clothes and dress up for occasions? Of course I'd let her wear something else if she didn't like a dress but why put ideas in her head? Eg4. And the "you don't have to look pretty for anyone" is an ongoing thing. I was once putting on make up before heading out for date night, SIL came over to babysit. DD started copying me, pretending to put on make up, then came up to the mirror and said "wow so pretty, like mummy!" SIL once again said to her "but remember, you don't have to ever try to put on make up or change yourself to impress a man"

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 22:50

EarringsandLipstick · 15/12/2023 22:41

I can’t imagine why anyone would continue to work when it costs more to do so

What? Surely you can.

There are many reasons to continue working - and it's equally valid to choose not to.

But many women will work at a loss, effectively, when they have small DC, requiring childcare. It's not the cost for the woman exclusively though. It's a shared cost with the other parent, and continuing to work is an investment in her career & the longer-term future. If that's what the individual and family chooses.

But many women will work at a loss, effectively, when they have small DC, requiring childcare. It's not the cost for the woman exclusively though. It's a shared cost with the other parent, and continuing to work is an investment in her career & the longer-term future.

Exactly. We're having twins this time so will have 3 under 2, nursery fees are going to be outrageous but thankfully it won't be forever.

VanityDiesHard · 15/12/2023 22:50

SIL sounds really annoying. It is 2023, we don't have to be told that girls can play football instead of baking. It is rude to undermine a parent who is trying to dress their child. The only one where she has a point is the heteronormativity. But I totally get why you are finding her grating. I used to hang around woke people a lot about ten years ago and they are fecking exhausting. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Original poster

nhd · 15/12/2023 22:50

@Didimum & @ other people saying "why is it just the mum's salary that pays childcare" ...

It's the combined salary whoever pays childcare. Look at it this way
Mum earns £1,700
Dad earns £2,000
Nursery costs £1,500
Let's say we subtract nursery costs from the mum's salary that leaves the family with £200 from mum's salary to spend on other family-related expenses (food, mortgage, entertainment, clothes etc). And £2,000 from the dad's salary to spend on family-related expenses. All in all £2,200.
Now let's say mum and dad halve the childcare costs. That leaves £950 from mum's salary to spend on family-related expenses and £1,250 from dad's to spend on family-related expenses. All in all £2,200.
Same thing.

Or do you all expect the dad to go "haha well all your money has been spent on childcare this month, guess you won't eat and you're homeless" ?!

OP posts:

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 22:49

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 22:47

Because it's temporary. In the long run, nursery costs will stop and earning potential will increase.

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Not always. Not everyone has an annual promotion opportunity

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 22:47

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 22:36

OK so I’m not brilliant at Maths but I’m pretty sure you won’t ‘be out of pocket in the long run’ if nursery costs exceed one person’s income. I can’t imagine why anyone would continue to work when it costs more to do so

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Because it's temporary. In the long run, nursery costs will stop and earning potential will increase.

MsRosley · 15/12/2023 22:45

BethDuttonsTwin · 15/12/2023 20:08

You’re in an Echo Chamber. You’re fully subscribed to current social trends and as such have surrounded yourself with those who share your views and beliefs.

”I spent my 20s in a large city where people are less hateful”

Where? I’m in London, have been for twenty years and my experience is directly opposite to yours. Everyone I know is rolling their eyes at “Queerness” some are actively offended by having their same sex attraction and love co-opted and labelled thus by Spicy Straights 😁.

I didn’t say there was an “agenda” so I am not sure why that’s in quotation marks? I said there’s huge social currency to be gained from declaring oneself “queer” and that is true. Some have even called this a Social Contagion. I do not mean to suggest this applies to you, you sound older for a start, but it is certainly true among young people and as I have two cynical and eye rolling teenagers and numerous teenagers within my extended family, with lots of mates I feel fairly confident in asserting this.

It’s good that there is increased acceptance around non heteronormativity - I completely applaud it. But it simply isn’t possible to confidently assert as you have, that 20% of people are now and have always been attracted to multiple sexes on the basis of one study and your own anecdotal evidence. Such claims can have no weight when the concept of “Queerness” is so questionable/controversial but holds such value in gaining attention/plaudits for any young person who claims to be such, and when it is clearly, largely social media driven - a pretty recent technology that most of us let our youngsters roam about on completely unsupervised.

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Bravo. Though deaf ears and all that.

Yesididntdothat · 15/12/2023 22:44

I think she sounds like a good alternative role model to have in your dd's life.

EarringsandLipstick · 15/12/2023 22:41

I can’t imagine why anyone would continue to work when it costs more to do so

What? Surely you can.

There are many reasons to continue working - and it's equally valid to choose not to.

But many women will work at a loss, effectively, when they have small DC, requiring childcare. It's not the cost for the woman exclusively though. It's a shared cost with the other parent, and continuing to work is an investment in her career & the longer-term future. If that's what the individual and family chooses.

Passingthethyme · 15/12/2023 22:38

I think your SIL comments are very relevant!

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 22:36

Didimum · 15/12/2023 22:18

If being out of pocket is the leading reason to stop working, then she is doing herself a disservice – it's short sighted and they will be increasingly out of pocket in the long run

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OK so I’m not brilliant at Maths but I’m pretty sure you won’t ‘be out of pocket in the long run’ if nursery costs exceed one person’s income. I can’t imagine why anyone would continue to work when it costs more to do so

Original poster

nhd · 15/12/2023 22:35

@Tandora and by that same logic she would have hated going to a football match with daddy. She preferred baking. So why should she be shamed for baking because it's "girly" rather than just being praised for putting effort into something she enjoys and taking pride in the cookies that she herself produced?

OP posts:

justasking111 · 15/12/2023 22:33

Well following university women are facing working for the next 45 years, taking a career break won't make a difference to your private pension, nor in fact your state pension.

If you're concerned speak to a pensions advisor.

Original poster

nhd · 15/12/2023 22:31

@SouthLondonMum22 perhaps feminism means different things to you and me?
Yes it's about having equal CHOICE. So I could have chosen to continue my career and put my DD in childcare. My DD could grow up to have any career she likes or she could grow up to be a SAHM. She could also change her choice at any point. DH could in theory choose to be a SAHD whilst I work if that's what works better for us.

It's not about "well my husband works so I must work too"

Whilst I was pregnant I thought I'd go back to work much sooner. DH was very supportive. Then I decided I won't and DH was also supportive. Would we be "better" feminists if we forced me back into work even if it made me personally more miserable?!

OP posts:

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 22:19

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 22:01

How is it feminist to expect women to constantly stick it to the patriarchy over the needs of themselves and their family?

Also most women are intelligent adults who can weigh the risk for themselves. How patronising to be self assigned the hero and saviour of financially vulnerable women.

For all MN bangs On about women being ‘financially vulnerable‘, I have to say I’ve known loads of unmarried SAHMs and not a single one has ever been swizzed by her OH.

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Yet you see it all of the time. Women trapped in unhappy relationships because they aren't financially independent and simply can't afford to leave.

It doesn't make them stupid, society is largely to blame. Not individuals.

Didimum · 15/12/2023 22:18

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 22:15

🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️

Why do you think that?

This is a combined salary. Being combined out of pocket by having her work makes the same calculations

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If being out of pocket is the leading reason to stop working, then she is doing herself a disservice – it's short sighted and they will be increasingly out of pocket in the long run

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 22:18

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 22:16

That's a short sighted way of looking at it though since the expensive under 2 nursery costs are temporary. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't consider future earning potential, pensions etc.

As I said, of course someone is going to do what they believe is best for their family and in such a sexist society, no one is perfect. It doesn't make it a feminist choice though, that's all.

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So what? It also doesn’t make it a Marxist choice either - but last I checked nobody had to make a choice on a social agenda so that’s fine.

Also I’ll let you into a secret - being a SAHM can be a temporary measure too. No SAHM ever got told “once you make this choice you can never go back”

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 22:16

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 21:59

OK I’ll simplify it.
Most men earn more than women because gender pay gap

Wife earns £1,800 a month
Husband earns £2,500 a month

They have a baby.

Nursery would cost £1,500 a month (and would also be expensive if wife wanted to go PT). Then there’s the cost of fuel to nursery and work costs - lunches, clothing, etc. So it’s basically not worth the woman working, and as she earns less she is the logical SAHP choice. What kind of batshit people would say “For the sake of being out of pocket every month, let’s take one for the feminists”.

Everyday family decisions should not and do not get made on the basis of “is it good for feminism”. This is called the real world, where people do what’s best for their fa likes and give very few shots of some rando on MN thinks it’s a good feminist choice or not.

Who gives a fuck if it doesn’t serve feminism. Expecting women’s o always be Good Feminists (even defying what’s right for their family) is, ironically, bad feminism . I’m a feminist and it’s largely about choice and agency IMO. Having the choice to do what is right for you is not anti-feminist

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That's a short sighted way of looking at it though since the expensive under 2 nursery costs are temporary. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't consider future earning potential, pensions etc.

As I said, of course someone is going to do what they believe is best for their family and in such a sexist society, no one is perfect. It doesn't make it a feminist choice though, that's all.

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 22:15

Didimum · 15/12/2023 22:11

Wife earns £1,800 a month
Husband earns £2,500 a month

They have a baby.

Nursery would cost £1,500 a month (and would also be expensive if wife wanted to go PT). Then there’s the cost of fuel to nursery and work costs - lunches, clothing, etc. So it’s basically not worth the woman working, and as she earns less she is the logical SAHP choice.

Why are costs deemed to come out of her salary and not his?

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🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️

Why do you think that?

This is a combined salary. Being combined out of pocket by having her work makes the same calculations

justasking111 · 15/12/2023 22:14

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 21:59

OK I’ll simplify it.
Most men earn more than women because gender pay gap

Wife earns £1,800 a month
Husband earns £2,500 a month

They have a baby.

Nursery would cost £1,500 a month (and would also be expensive if wife wanted to go PT). Then there’s the cost of fuel to nursery and work costs - lunches, clothing, etc. So it’s basically not worth the woman working, and as she earns less she is the logical SAHP choice. What kind of batshit people would say “For the sake of being out of pocket every month, let’s take one for the feminists”.

Everyday family decisions should not and do not get made on the basis of “is it good for feminism”. This is called the real world, where people do what’s best for their fa likes and give very few shots of some rando on MN thinks it’s a good feminist choice or not.

Who gives a fuck if it doesn’t serve feminism. Expecting women’s o always be Good Feminists (even defying what’s right for their family) is, ironically, bad feminism . I’m a feminist and it’s largely about choice and agency IMO. Having the choice to do what is right for you is not anti-feminist

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@LeaveBritneyAlone now that's a logical argument.

I took six years out having two children. Because of the small age gap nursery fees would have been a large part of many extra costs.

Once the youngest started school full time I went to college and retrained. I was now in a sought after field.

Marching into my first interview saying that I would only work school hours 9-3, was hired.

Feminism shouldn't be a hair shirt, but smart, logical choices in life

Tandora · 15/12/2023 22:14

nhd · 15/12/2023 21:20

As I've mentioned before on this thread I took her to football (her boy cousin was playing), asked her if she wants to also play. She said no and didn't enjoy watching, asked to eat her snacks and then wanted to leave.

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OP she’s three. Most three year olds don’t enjoy watching anything for more than 2 mins unless it’s cocomellon. And yes they prefer snacks to most things. 🤷🏼‍♀️
this doesn’t mean you have a girly girl who likes baking cookies, wearing pretty dresses and hates football 😂.

Allfur · 15/12/2023 22:12

I am generally team sil, however - you are her primary female role model, so I wouldn't worry to much about her

Didimum · 15/12/2023 22:11

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 21:59

OK I’ll simplify it.
Most men earn more than women because gender pay gap

Wife earns £1,800 a month
Husband earns £2,500 a month

They have a baby.

Nursery would cost £1,500 a month (and would also be expensive if wife wanted to go PT). Then there’s the cost of fuel to nursery and work costs - lunches, clothing, etc. So it’s basically not worth the woman working, and as she earns less she is the logical SAHP choice. What kind of batshit people would say “For the sake of being out of pocket every month, let’s take one for the feminists”.

Everyday family decisions should not and do not get made on the basis of “is it good for feminism”. This is called the real world, where people do what’s best for their fa likes and give very few shots of some rando on MN thinks it’s a good feminist choice or not.

Who gives a fuck if it doesn’t serve feminism. Expecting women’s o always be Good Feminists (even defying what’s right for their family) is, ironically, bad feminism . I’m a feminist and it’s largely about choice and agency IMO. Having the choice to do what is right for you is not anti-feminist

Show quote history

Wife earns £1,800 a month
Husband earns £2,500 a month

They have a baby.

Nursery would cost £1,500 a month (and would also be expensive if wife wanted to go PT). Then there’s the cost of fuel to nursery and work costs - lunches, clothing, etc. So it’s basically not worth the woman working, and as she earns less she is the logical SAHP choice.

Why are costs deemed to come out of her salary and not his?

Pallisers · 15/12/2023 22:05

I'd find those comments a little tiresome. I would probably internally roll my eyes. But I think they come from a good place and she loves your daughter so I wouldn't say anything.

Except I don't like that your sil seems to be saying that things that are considered traditionally feminine (baking/makeup/dresses) are inferior to things that are considered traditionally masculine. So in the case of the baking/football, I might have said "of course she could go to football - and when she has she liked it - but baking is great too and a really useful skill for any person to have" and when she said about not having to use make up for a man I would definitely have said "That's silly SIL. I wear make up because I enjoy it. not to please a man"

Fine to make sure a child knows that she can do anything and is not constrained by sex. Not fine to imply that things that are seen as feminine are less than things that are seen as masculine.

autienotnaughty · 15/12/2023 22:01

Your sil sounds hard work. But I'd ignore her and continue to do your own thing

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 22:01

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 21:56

The issue is the consequences it has for society as a whole, especially because it is almost always women who give up their careers or go part time which makes them financially vulnerable, not to mention other issues such as the gender pay gap.

It also teaches children that childcare and housework = women's work and having a career = men's work which is problematic.

How is any of that feminist?

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How is it feminist to expect women to constantly stick it to the patriarchy over the needs of themselves and their family?

Also most women are intelligent adults who can weigh the risk for themselves. How patronising to be self assigned the hero and saviour of financially vulnerable women.

For all MN bangs On about women being ‘financially vulnerable‘, I have to say I’ve known loads of unmarried SAHMs and not a single one has ever been swizzed by her OH.