To be annoyed by SIL making these comments towards my DD

Ah, great. It’s the best part of mumsnet I think when people share discussion and it’s not a tribal mutiny! My frustrations with discussion like this is the feminist stuff. Some people (not you!) sometimes seem to think it’s very black and white and almost apologise ‘I’m not a feminist but…’. I sometimes feel the feminist movement alienates people - my mum used to get shit for wearing makeup to feminist meetings in the seventies and I find stuff like that so frustrating. If your son and your daughter are both in the same job and your son gets paid more purely as he’s a man…you don’t think that’s fair, that’s feminism! And it gets sidetracked by things that don’t matter. Wear makeup! Love dresses! That’s brilliant! It’s also brilliant if you don’t!
But yes, thanks for the great chat 🥰

💯

By denigrating SAHM, you are denigrating women's work, and supporting a patriarchal view that only paid work is real work. Screw that. The problem with our society is that work women do is consistently devalued, and underappreciated.

Feminism is about equality. How does being a SAHM support equality, especially for women as a whole? It doesn't.

You've got that the wrong way around. Being a SAHM isn't about supporting feminism. Feminism is about supporting equality for women including the view that a woman staying home a rearing children (you know - the children that we need to pay large sums to other human beings - mostly women - to mind if we go back to work) isn't a useless contribution to society but instead an essential and valuable contribution not just to your own children but to society as a whole

Equality means valuing all the people who contribute - not just the bankers and high earners.

By the way I was never a SAHM but this just drives me nuts - the drive to devalue the work that - mostly - women do to rear the next generation of earners/tax payers at a time when someone needs to be there to mind them. I paid for it. Why should it be just nothing and something that doesn't support equality when a woman does it for her own children?

I don't force anyone to reply to me. Clearly some people are interested in the topic just as some people aren't.

Same as any topic really.

Thank you too, and thank you for getting the wider point I was trying to make! Mumsnet can get quite tribal at times, so it is nice to have a discussion that doesn't end in bloodshed, as you say.

Completely overstepping. If she wants to interject regarding someone's (perfectly normal) parenting she could be a lot more subtle about it! I wouldn't dare say anything like that to my friends or relatives who are parents, it's simply none of my business and really quite presumptuous.

Children's baking has been unisex for at least 20 years. Boys and girls did cookery/baking in my primary school in the 80s with no stigma. If anything your SIL is being regressive. TV and media is full of examples of male chefs and bakers as well as women and girls.

Your comments on this thread sound reasonable and balanced. What shouldn't your daughter bake if she enjoys it? You've already said she's been offered the opportunity to attend various football events and declined. That could change, who knows? This particular afternoon she chose baking. It sounds like you're continually giving her a variety of options.

I'd be extremely wary of gender ideology that's currently in fashion. It's not biologically possible to change sex; the whole movement is incredibly homophobic and steeped in stereotypes. Being gender non-conforming (within your own sex) is perfectly fine but no-one seems satisfied with that.

It's all a bit heavy handed for a 3 year old.

FWIW my own (difficult) mother pushed gender neutral and boyish toys/clothes/activities/hairstyles (my hair was forcibly cut to 1.5") on me as a child. I actually developed a complex as I was denied most pink girly things, not allowed even short bob length hair, baby dolls, barbies, feminine pretend play etc. She found it distasteful and made no attempt to hide it. She thrived on being contrary and bullish as well as sadistic. I was an only child and I often wonder if she wanted a boy or just enjoyed being controlling and making me miserable. It didn't build my confidence at all, quite the opposite. I felt inferior to the other girls. I understood the messages of 'you can be anything' (which I absorbed mainly from society, school and my wonderful dad, not my terrifying mother) but it didn't stop me wanting to play with pink/stereotypically girly toys some of the time like the other girls and have fun, pretty hair that would hold a bobble or clip. This is probably an extreme example but I feel extremely uncomfortable when people think they're doing good by imposing a particular ideology.

Maybe so, but yours is the only name I remember. The topic is often being discussed, but you are always to be relied upon to make the discussion longer.

That makes sense as to why we are coming at it from different viewpoints. I’m a mix, I love Disney princess stuff, but also football, I do all the DIY but love baking. My DD is 5, she loves all these things - we took her to a women’s football game which she loves from watching lionesses but also loves makeup and typical ‘girly’ things. I’ve always tried to make sure she has access to everything - I have an older brother who went to premiere league matches with my dad and when I came along my mum made sure I got included in the same way.

Just want to say, loving any of these things from mechanics to make up is not in any way a feminist issue. If you think you or DD shouldn’t be limited in anything you want to do based purely on the fact you’re a girl, you’re a feminist. It has literally nothing to do with dresses or makeup or football.

Also thanks for the great discussion - it’s so nice to have differing views on MN and it doesn’t descend into a row.

Feminism is about equality. How does being a SAHM support equality, especially for women as a whole? It doesn't.

Never in my life would I do something day-in day-out( that I never wanted to do in the first place) just to support a group of anything or anyone. Bulshit.
I live my life how I want and everyone else will do the same.

Where did you get 'she's babysitting for free'?

I can't discuss it with myself. If I'm strangely obsessed with it, so are those who also engage with the topic over multiple threads.

Plenty of topics repeat themselves.

You do seem strangely obsessed with the topic, to be fair. Like I don't often remember usernames, especially not generic 'mum and numbers' ones, but I remember yours because you are always going on and on about how being a SAHM is a bad idea.

Agree

She sounds fantastic - are you my SIL complaining about me?
She is babysitting for free you should be singing her praises not picking at her for telling your daughter she can be anything and is perfect just as she is.
The only one I think is number 3 telling her it's ok to go out half dressed. That would annoy me and I'd have to say something like 'actually SIL we have a rule that parents choose clothes/ we dress smartly for smart occasions so it would be really helpful if you could avoid saying anything that undermines this family rule'

If it was the other way round, say she went to watch football, and someone kept saying "but you know, as a girl, you could bake instead" that would be sexist and inappropriate. So why not let her enjoy what she enjoys without bringing her gender into it?
Completely agree op.

About 10 years ago my first niece was born, I had friends who always spoke about feminism, they filled my head with all that stuff and so I was determined to find gender neutral toys/clothes only, and steered away from anything pink. (I cringe now at how I went on and on and onnnn to my parents about her not needing anything pink just because she is a girl and we dont say things like she is pretty) so I bought train sets, dull coloured clothing etc .

Once she got to the age of asking for things herself, all she wanted was pink and purple unicorns, sequins, glitter, dolls, crafts. Still wears it all now, new craze is leopard print everything. Loves baking, always wants to wear a bow in her hair. She is on a (mixed gender)football team and also plays GAA.

🤷‍♀️ The child likes what she likes.

Nobody forced her or brainwashed her to like these things. She literally chose them with her own free will.

I'm not targeting them at all. It's a discussion, one which originally wasn't even about SAHM's and I wasn't the one who brought it up.

But if it is brought up, I will discuss it. Last time I checked, that's the purpose of AIBU.

I will admit, I am much closer to OP in outlook than I am to SIL. I don't wear a lot of makeup, but I do love dressing up in lovely ultrafeminine clothes, and baking. I hate football with a passion and dislike outdoorsy pursuits. I don't think that makes me any less of a feminist that anyone else.

No, but I've seen your comments on so many posts and you're always targeting stay at home mums.

I totally agree. These 'feminist' threads all seem to go the same way. You are only a true feminist if you dress in a boiler suit to go on a night out, work full time as well as parenting your children, to show that women can have it all, and bring up your girl children to see lipstick as the enemy. I haven't seen anything like it since 1995. Absurd.

Agree, and it’s a tricky business offering advice out of your lane so to speak. But SIL seems to be offering counters ie. of course you can do this, but this also exists as an option. I wouldn’t be bothered by this but my view is probably coloured by the fact I sit on SIL viewpoints more than OPs I think. I see your point though, unasked for advice is always choppy waters as you say.

Pointing out that not all choices are feminist isn't degrading women, that's ridiculous.

Go SIL! She is supporting you in making sure your DD grows up strong and independent. It’s not too soon to start. Gender stereotyping starts early and, from your post, you are inadvertently reinforcing some of this. For example choice of two dresses, speaking about being ‘pretty’. Better gender positive language would be ‘You can choose what to wear but we must be clean and tidy/dressed for the weather/what makes you feel comfortable. Likewise the make up thing try ‘does it make YOU feel good? Is that how YOU like to look? Do YOU like to look like that?” You’re pretty (although can be used as a compliment I suppose) shouldn’t be the goal of her wearing make-up. Rather her expressing her identity/creativity/values. It’s hard to get it right OP (not judging) but if you see SIL as helping rather than hindering your DD will have two very positive female role models in her life