To feel completely disillusioned with the Labour Party?

OK I will bite.
Hitters positives were dragging the country out of recession after ww1 payback, everyone should know this from key stage 3 history. The vacuum of power left by us meant conditions for authoritarianism were ripe.
Starmer is a neoliberal as thatcher was and all parties since have been both economically and socially Liberal. Old Labour and old tory don't exist anymore as political entities you can vote for.
If you want the closest to consensus social democrat politics after ww2 up to thatchers new right go sdp, they are trying to field lots of mps. Obviously not reform party. Maybe lib dem. Green is the furthest left but remember identity is more important than class politics to the greens so if you want equality they are not the party.

It's a vote for gender woo if you vote Green

The point isnt to vote for someone you think is going to win. It's to vote for someone you want to win

I would rather wait until manifestos are released before considering anything..

Why ?

Sorry, but if anyone can convince me the current governments policies are in any way related to their manifesto, then they should be selling bridges.

The only manifesto pledge I can recall being honoured in the past 8 years is to hold the Brexit referendum. And if I were seeking re-election I'd be be keeping that very quiet.

However I realise you're probably just being pedantic.

@lkwhjis if you think this is Socialism you really need to open your eyes. 😂😂

If you are a leftie, this government is surely what you’ve always wanted.

Highest ever taxes
Highest ever public spending
Biggest ever public sector and civil service
Highest ever business taxes, some big businesses paying upto 80% taxes
Record breaking immigration
Record breaking asylum seekers and claims granted

This is socialism. We thought you always wanted socialism.

I would rather wait until manifestos are released before considering anything.. it's way too early to decide anything now. However there's no way on this planet I'd vote Conservative (not that I ever have) let's not forget that they believe being homeless is a lifestyle choice, and plan to massively cut disability benefits in the coming years.. with a long term view to scrap them entirely!

I want a fair society, where poor and vulnerable people are cared for. This works for everyone, even if you are 'alright Jack' - as we can all fall on hard times. I'm certainly spending a great deal of time worrying about falling on hard times one day, because the safety net is no longer there.

If you want the tories out, depending on where you live, you may not have to vote Labour. The Lib Dems are best placed to beat be tories in about 50 constituencies. The SNP similarly in 10 or so.

Oh, I entirely agree that some of it absolutely barking. But I also find myself agreeing with the odd bit or two, eg renationalising the water industry. (Disclaimer: I may be less than impartial on this, having the joy of living in the Southern Water, where they seem to have massive leaks, loads of illegal sewage spills and last year managed to leave thousands without water for days at a time, all the while making £368m profit.

Depends where OP is in any case - if a safe seat then voting makes fuck all difference due to our shit system.

Oh I like that.

Total agreement there. The thing that makes me sad and hopeless is the widespread belief that we’re totally trapped in the system when there may be some ways to begin to see a way out. But agree with you.

I suppose he "got things done". Tragically, they were truly appalling things.

I totally get where you are coming from OP. The thing is the public won’t vote for someone like Corbyn who had some really great policies that properly addressed inequality because he didn’t play the game and provide clear sound bites.

And the main thing is we need to get the current lot out asap. Inequality is out of control and public services have been ravaged. The economy decimated.

Kier is fair minded. He’s too centric for my liking but he is credible and competent. He’s stable and compassionate. He has integrity. He genuinely wants to effect change.

His comment about Thatcher was about a certain thing and about bringing about meaningful change (which she did - bad change - but she did have a set of values and ideals and was driven by them). The difference between her and the current lot is that they are all in it for the power, prestige and money. They have no integrity and no values. They change their policy according to the current right wing media dog whistling.

I will vote Labour despite being disillusioned about the policies - because they will be better than what we currently have and my hope is that more compassion, integrity, honesty and stability will be good for us all and there can be a shift towards a more equitable society as time goes on. And hopefully some more significant action on the climate emergency rather than the piss poor ignorant twat we have in charge at the moment with his private jets and helicopters. 😡

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau it's a vicious circle and I am just not convinced it can be broken without major electoral reform. And retaining FPTP means perpetuating the distortions it creates and the way some votes carry zero weight. I just feel that it's wrong for people to be more represented just because of where they live. It makes a mockery of one man (or woman), one vote.

The Labour Party is bad, the Tories are a lot worse. Get rid of a Tory government and you will at least start to stop the rot. Even if it is a minority government propped up by smaller parties.

I don't know where you live OP, but there are about 100 seats where tactical voting could get rid of a Tory and be replaced by someone other than Labour.

That's vanishingly unlikely, but if they did, I suspect we'd have either a Green or LD government and UKIP/Green/LD would be the opposition, depending on which was the second largest party.

In that eventuality, you'd better hope that it's the LDs. The Green Party manifesto reads like a particularly whackadoodle GCSE politics project. Hilariously, almost none of their candidates I've met even know what's in it, they've just got some vague idea that it's something to do with the environment.

Have a read of it some time. It's...terrifying.

Indeed. No manifestos yet either. It’s way too soon to write any party off for lack of policies.

There is a very very old saying about not letting perfection be the enemy of progress.

he is the smaller evil but goodness it is being frustrating that there isn't anyone one could vote for because they liked their policies and what they stand for (unless one is happy to waste gbe vote) for but that one votes for a party who have lost their direction principles simply to avoid another Tory government.

That's vanishingly unlikely, but if they did, I suspect we'd have either a Green or LD government and UKIP/Green/LD would be the opposition, depending on which was the second largest party.

If none of them had an overall majority, then I suspect there would be a Green/LD coalition, or the largest of them would form a government with supplort from the other via a confidence and supply agreement.

And it's not the case that "everyone thinks everyone else will vote Tory or Labour. I live in a Con/LD marginal, and there is another one just a few miles away. Despite having been a Labour party member almost all my adult life (I had 4 years sulk leave because of Blair's war crimes, and only rejoined when Brown took over), I vote LD because it's the best chance of getting the Tory out. Privately, all my party member friends will admit to doing the same, as do non-member Labour supporting friends. We campaign in the nearest seat that Labour can win.

I think tactical voting will be a big factor in the outcome next time, and I encourage everyone who's not a Tory to vote tactically. If anyone is unclear who's the strongest competition and wants to do the same, check out the results for 2010 and 2015 via google (imo 2019 was an outlier because of Brexit, and should disregarded) and vote for whichever party came second. If it was close, the Guardian may well publish a tactical voting (they've done this in the last few elections).

Thanks @pointythings. I’m aware that is how it actually works, it just confuses me why! If a critical mass of people wanted to vote for other than the two main parties, we’d have radical change for better or worse.

Mrs Thatcher - for all her faults - had a tendency to listen to scientists and act on advice even if she hated it.

It's why the UK lead the western world in AIDS reduction in the 80s.

It's also why the UK remained in the EU - despite her dislike of it.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau because FPTP inherently delivers two party systems. If you want representation, you need a form of PR. Sadly that will get you a Geert Wilders at times, but it is a more democratic system because all votes genuinely count.

(And if the current Dutch formation process continues as it is, Wilders will be severely deranged and have his worst excesses curtailed)