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Original poster

To think the rich/poor divide is so unfair

445 replies

Mooshamoo · 03/12/2023 12:35

I know people who were born into lovely comfortable families.

These people had enough money. They also had two supportive caring parents. No worries or stres at all..Every one of those people went on to college, and went on to have really good jobs. They have a good social life, they get to socialise with people who also came from comfortable families.

I came from a troubled family. My father abandoned us. Which left us in poverty. So we had no money. I also had no emotional support whatsoever. My mother was an emotional mess and couldn't cope on her own with anything, I basically had to be her mother from a very young age. I had a lot of emotional worries and stress. As a young woman, early twenties, I remembered seeing other young women enjoy nights out. I never got to have anything like that as I was just struggling to survive.

I didn't have support to achieve anything in my life, and I ended up in dead end jobs and I still now don't have a lot of money, I don't have good relationships. I don't have great friendships, as I find the rich affluemt comfortable people don't want to socialise with me. I remember one person saying to me "oh is that a shitty little job that you do".

And if I socialise with people from a similar troubled background to myself, these peollw have so many problems of their own, that these never turn out to be good healthy friendships for me. We just add to each others problems. For example we will sit with each other and one person will say "I lived in foster care and it was horrendous, the family were abusive" I will say "one time i lived in emergency accommodation as a young woman and it was awful". Our lives were so bad that to be around each other, we just make each other sadder and worse.

It just feels like being trapped in a cycle of poverty and suffering that's not fair and there is no way out.

It's luck of birth.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Zone2NorthLondon · 03/12/2023 17:06

ChristmasBaublesandMore · 03/12/2023 17:01

Are there no colleges that do evening classes?
Where I live, you could study English or maths in the evenings, free. After than you could move onto A-levels and then higher education.

Life isn't fair. But it's what you make it.

My father lost his dad when he was 8.
They were bombed out of their house twice in the second world war and lost everything.
His mother raised 3 kids on 3 part time jobs. No benefits in the 1930s.

My father passed for Grammar school but his mum couldn't afford the uniform.
He left school with nothing, went to work in the shipyards.

At 22 he started doing evening classes, after 12 hours a day doing a physical job building ships.

After 7 years he had the equivalent of a degree after going to college 2 nights a week.

He then got a professional job and was able to buy a house.

They were always poor but valued education.

You can turn things round but it takes effort and resilience.

Here it is,the plucky working class overcoming adversity anecdotes. One uplifting story is not representative of all
The inevitable plucky pull yourself together tone You can turn things round but it takes effort and resilience this isn’t a truism at all.

Spinderellaseverywhere · 03/12/2023 17:06

Of course it’s unfair. However so is poor physical health, poor mental health, death of a parent etc etc. life is unfair! The only thing you can do is to do your best with what you’ve got.

Drdoomish · 03/12/2023 17:05

LimePi · 03/12/2023 17:03

@Mooshamoo

do a bit of reading, love, to find out what it is to be a woman in Afghanistan or Ethiopia
you have a home, free school education, free and good healthcare, some form of state pension? A job? Maybe free or discounted higher education?
now imagine a life where there is NONE of that and it is the norm for everyone

It's not a race to the bottom, love.

CherryBlossom321 · 03/12/2023 17:05

Mooshamoo · 03/12/2023 12:35

I know people who were born into lovely comfortable families.

These people had enough money. They also had two supportive caring parents. No worries or stres at all..Every one of those people went on to college, and went on to have really good jobs. They have a good social life, they get to socialise with people who also came from comfortable families.

I came from a troubled family. My father abandoned us. Which left us in poverty. So we had no money. I also had no emotional support whatsoever. My mother was an emotional mess and couldn't cope on her own with anything, I basically had to be her mother from a very young age. I had a lot of emotional worries and stress. As a young woman, early twenties, I remembered seeing other young women enjoy nights out. I never got to have anything like that as I was just struggling to survive.

I didn't have support to achieve anything in my life, and I ended up in dead end jobs and I still now don't have a lot of money, I don't have good relationships. I don't have great friendships, as I find the rich affluemt comfortable people don't want to socialise with me. I remember one person saying to me "oh is that a shitty little job that you do".

And if I socialise with people from a similar troubled background to myself, these peollw have so many problems of their own, that these never turn out to be good healthy friendships for me. We just add to each others problems. For example we will sit with each other and one person will say "I lived in foster care and it was horrendous, the family were abusive" I will say "one time i lived in emergency accommodation as a young woman and it was awful". Our lives were so bad that to be around each other, we just make each other sadder and worse.

It just feels like being trapped in a cycle of poverty and suffering that's not fair and there is no way out.

It's luck of birth.

I agree with you. Statistically, those from financially deprived backgrounds are more likely to have experienced abuse, struggled with addiction, and suffer from low confidence and self esteem. It’s not impossible to overcome adversity and yes, a small number manage to break free but that’s often not possible for those with much tighter financial restrictions, caring responsibilities, low self esteem, who may also be battling depression and addiction. How you are treated and supported during childhood has a huge impact on your life as an adult.

LimePi · 03/12/2023 17:03

@Mooshamoo

do a bit of reading, love, to find out what it is to be a woman in Afghanistan or Ethiopia
you have a home, free school education, free and good healthcare, some form of state pension? A job? Maybe free or discounted higher education?
now imagine a life where there is NONE of that and it is the norm for everyone

Nowherenew · 03/12/2023 17:01

Bluepiano · 03/12/2023 16:55

Completely agree. There’s been lots of research into ACEs (adverse childhood experiences) and how they affect outcomes for people in childhood and into adulthood.
its not to say that if you experience any of these, you can’t be happy and successful, it just means it’s much harder for you. I find it frustrating that some people think we live in a meritocracy and people who are successful always get there by working harder than those who don’t the ‘well I must have just worked harder than you because I’m rich’ attitude.

I completely agree.

It’s like when celebs like Kim Kardashian say everyone has the same 24 hours or that people just need to work harder, even though their parents were very wealthy to start with.

ChristmasBaublesandMore · 03/12/2023 17:01

Are there no colleges that do evening classes?
Where I live, you could study English or maths in the evenings, free. After than you could move onto A-levels and then higher education.

Life isn't fair. But it's what you make it.

My father lost his dad when he was 8.
They were bombed out of their house twice in the second world war and lost everything.
His mother raised 3 kids on 3 part time jobs. No benefits in the 1930s.

My father passed for Grammar school but his mum couldn't afford the uniform.
He left school with nothing, went to work in the shipyards.

At 22 he started doing evening classes, after 12 hours a day doing a physical job building ships.

After 7 years he had the equivalent of a degree after going to college 2 nights a week.

He then got a professional job and was able to buy a house.

They were always poor but valued education.

You can turn things round but it takes effort and resilience.

Drdoomish · 03/12/2023 17:01

Nicole1111 · 03/12/2023 13:11

I’m not convinced difficulties are the result of being poor, as there are many poor people who have more positive experiences. I think it’s sadly trauma that has the lasting impact. There is a lot of research that indicates that having 1 or more of these adverse childhood experiences can have significant consequences.

  • Child physical abuse
  • Child sexual abuse
  • Child emotional abuse
  • Emotional neglect
  • Physical neglect
  • Mentally ill, depressed, or suicidal person in the home
  • Drug addicted or alcoholic family member
  • Witnessing domestic violence against the mother
  • Loss of a parent to death or abandonment by parental divorce
  • Incarceration of any family member for a crime

I can tick 9 of this list in my childhood, as can my sister. We lived hand to mouth.

Poverty is a major factor, but not an ACE. With poverty included, you've got so much further to climb up to even get to the playing field, let alone level it. You can't just pop off for therapy to deal with these issues as you can't afford it. You often numb them with the cheaper alternatives of alcohol/drugs...and so continue the cycle.

My sister has bounced from pillar to post and hasn't really known stability for the last 40 years.

I had a wonderful team of staff in primary school who cared, fed me, bought me clothes as needed. I wanted to please them, so tried hard at school. I became successful.

It was harder to keep working hard at secondary, as I wasn't as well known nor encouraged there by staff. But I kept going.

Got a place at Cambridge. Worked all through term time and full time every holiday to supplement my full grant. Don't quite know how I got to graduation.

I now have success in my career and am comfortably settled. The cycle is broken for me.

Damn the Tories for getting rid of free higher education. I'd never have gone to uni had I had to pay...18 yr old me would never have allowed myself to get into so much debt.
Damn the Tories for getting rid of Surestart centres.
Damn the Tories for not getting enough tax from the rich and preventing problems at a young age.
Damn the Tories for not funding schools enough to make a difference to those children who need extra finance for that extra push to succeed.

Education was my key out of that life. I still doubt myself regularly and lack self belief that I am good enough, but it's lessened with time.

You've got some great advice here @Mooshamoo I wish you well as you continue your journey to make things better for yourself. The hard work will be worth it.

Mumteedum · 03/12/2023 17:01

JudgeJ · 03/12/2023 16:06

Yawn Yawn! Which government in any country has ever tried to tackle the inevitable gap between richer and poorer?

Show quote history

It's inevitable because the ruling class want it so. Yes, there will always be difference but social mobility has got worse. The Uber rich are rich because of the labour of the poor.

Rutger Bregman is interesting on poverty.

https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash?utm_campaign=tedspread&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=tedcomshare

Poverty isn't a lack of character; it's a lack of cash

"Ideas can and do change the world," says historian Rutger Bregman, sharing his case for a provocative one: guaranteed basic income. Learn more about the idea's 500-year history and a forgotten modern experiment where it actually worked -- and imagine...

https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash

Nowherenew · 03/12/2023 16:59

YANBU

Wealthy people have so many more privileges than poorer people and their lives are considerably easier for it.

People say that rich people can have a neglectful or abusive home too, which is true but chances are they still had a warm home, food to eat and a chance at a good education.

There is a cycle of wealth/poverty.

Chances are if you grew up poor, you will become a poor adult and then your DCs will also be poor and the cycle just continues.

The only thing you can do is try and get a decent job and encourage your DCs to have good careers and start breaking that cycle of poverty.
If may not be be broken in one generation but it will eventually.

I definitely think it’s easier to break the cycle of poverty nowadays than it was in the past.
It used to be that if your parents were doctors then you’d be a doctor but if your parent was a factory worker, you’d have no chance of becoming a doctor but now there are many more opportunities for people and slowly I think it will even put more.

Fartooold · 03/12/2023 16:55

It's difficult, because I do relate to what you are saying, but have a completely different outcome.
My dad, brother and sister all died when we were living abroad, I came back here, and started school aged six, with my mam working full time to support us, and me walking home from school alone, and caring for myself until she got in from work.
She went on to remarry when I was 12. I ran away from
home at 15, and never went back, though did rebuild a relationship, of a sort, with her.
I had done my o levels, and did quite well, but was out in 'the real world' and needed to make money to pay rent.

To cut a long ( and very colourful) story short, from being dragged up, I ended up as CEO for charity, retired at 55 and, medical and personal issues aside, have had a happy and very full life.

So, I suppose I'm saying that I understand what you're saying, but also claiming that life is what you make it. Doesn't always work, of course not, I've been lucky, but having a poor start on life spurred me on, rather than limited my aspirations.

Bluepiano · 03/12/2023 16:55

Completely agree. There’s been lots of research into ACEs (adverse childhood experiences) and how they affect outcomes for people in childhood and into adulthood.
its not to say that if you experience any of these, you can’t be happy and successful, it just means it’s much harder for you. I find it frustrating that some people think we live in a meritocracy and people who are successful always get there by working harder than those who don’t the ‘well I must have just worked harder than you because I’m rich’ attitude.

Original poster
Mooshamoo · 03/12/2023 16:52

@@LimePi you said that people born in a developed country have won the lottery against people born in countries in Ethiopia. While I agree in a part.

I don't know how developed countries came even be called developed countries , when they don't even give the basic living conditions to people.

Who decides that they are "developed".

I walked through Dublin city centre last week , and the amount of homeless people in tents is shocking. In the rain

Is that living in a developed way.

OP posts:
Original poster
Mooshamoo · 03/12/2023 16:49

@CottonC you said to me "you live in one of the best countries in the world" and then what you wrote after that means you think I live in the U.K.

I said that I live in the Republic of Ireland. The Republic of Ireland is also a first world country. However it is extremely expensive. And we have an extreme wealth divide here. I see lots of very rich people.

I also see lots of people in Ireland who can't afford their rent or food.

I see lots of homeless tents in Dublin city centre.

I have visited the UK a couple of times , and while you say it's one of the best countries in the works and indeed it is better than many others,
the last time that I was in the UK - people there were telling me there how they couldn't afford their rent and bills and how the cost of living is huge.

So I know that there is a lot of poverty in the UK too

OP posts:
MythicBish · 03/12/2023 16:46

Op i agree with the majority of your post, but i do think love and money/class are different things being lumped in together.

Poor/working class doesnt automatically mean being neglected, bad parenting, unloved, uncultured, abused, addiction problems, traumatised etc

LimePi · 03/12/2023 16:46

@Whalewatchers

well we are talking about luck and privilege in achieving financial success no? Not about happiness
its silly to argue that a person born in the UK even in poverty has more opportunities to better their life than a person born in poverty in Ethiopia

everyone born in a developed country has won a genetic lottery already compared to the rest of the world

LimePi · 03/12/2023 16:43

@daisychain01

oh they are still hearing “you were just lucky”, the people who believe that success is pure luck and privilege still manage to find something to denigrate these people’s personal achievements against the odds

its like a religion, this thought that EVERYONE who is successful is just lucky 🙄

Zone2NorthLondon · 03/12/2023 16:42

OutsideLookingOut · 03/12/2023 16:36

It isn't just MN. It is human nature to wnat this. I think truly acknowledging what an unjust system people on this earth are born into would overwhelm some people. It is by luck that we are even born into stable countries never mind have stable parents etc etc. We want to believe that anyone and everyone can overcome anything so we don't have to feel any guilt over our lot.

Show quote history

We want to believe that anyone and everyone can overcome anything so we don't have to feel any guilt over our lot yes frequently people look away or minimise or recall an anecdote of overcoming adversity to protect their ego or conscience. We see but don’t see. Give some money to pudsey and move on

Whalewatchers · 03/12/2023 16:40

LimePi · 03/12/2023 16:35

Life is very unfair sure
you could have been born into poverty in Ethiopia, Afghanistan or Pakistan 🙄
as far as women from these countries are concerned you are very privileged…

That's a very black and white view though. A lot of people people in disadvantaged countries are incredibly happy, have wonderful family and friends and are surrounded by love. Just because you happen to live in a privileged country, doesn't mean you can't be unloved, starving and abused.

gherkinmerkinn · 03/12/2023 16:39

I see you point but I really don't think it's that polarised.

May parents had plenty of money and were also abusive, didn't care that my brother abused me and then when we were adults they bought him a house and gave me fuck all.

He's lived off their money his entire adult life (he's now nearly 50) and I've been no contact with them for years, making my own way in life. He'll inherit their millions and I won't. Ah well.

That said, I do appreciate the priveleges that growing up with money gave me, my parents were also very education focussed so I was very lucky to do well in school (state comprehensive) and Uni then Master's (self funded as a mature student) and I love my job. I don't take that for granted.

OutsideLookingOut · 03/12/2023 16:36

Zone2NorthLondon · 03/12/2023 16:31

Any discussion on mn regard social mobility & inequality inevitably gets derailed by worthy anecdotes of plucky poor people who did well. Proceeded to good career and financial stability despite growing up poor. The booming inference is always well if they (poor upbringing) got out it’s because they worked hard,wanted it….others don’t get out because they lack ambition and don’t work hard

mn loves a plucky against the odds story, it protects the ego and conscience of the reader. So they don’t feel bad that kids grow up hungry, temporary accommodation lasts years,and we systematically fail families. Much easier to cling to anecdotes of plucky grafters who work their way out then look at the obstacles and inequalities the poor encounter

It isn't just MN. It is human nature to wnat this. I think truly acknowledging what an unjust system people on this earth are born into would overwhelm some people. It is by luck that we are even born into stable countries never mind have stable parents etc etc. We want to believe that anyone and everyone can overcome anything so we don't have to feel any guilt over our lot.

LimePi · 03/12/2023 16:35

Life is very unfair sure
you could have been born into poverty in Ethiopia, Afghanistan or Pakistan 🙄
as far as women from these countries are concerned you are very privileged…

QueenOfMOHO · 03/12/2023 16:33

I hear you OP. I grew in poverty because of Dad's alcoholism. I know what it is to watch your Mum be beaten up by your Dad.
I decided that wasn't the life for me and I studied hard to get a degree and axcareer and a way out of there. I volunteered at Samaritans and Guides and as well as helping others it helped me, in that I made lovely friends.
In done ways my early experiences have greatly benefitted me, I have real depth of understanding of what others are going through, I am really good with money (if you don't know where the next penny is coming from, you don't waste it) and I really appreciate the stable environment that my own DC grew up in.
You have it within you to make things change.

CottonC · 03/12/2023 16:33

@Mooshamoo I'm sorry about your childhood experince and you certainly had some real challenges. However you're in one of the richest countries in the world where education etc is free and social mobility has never been higher. Regardless of family circumstance, this is one of the best places to be born in the world and is why we have literally millions of immigrants coming or attempting to come here, even risking their lives to do so and skipping other safe Western countries.

You have to take responsibility for what is in your control i.e. working hard at school, getting good/reasonable grades, going for jobs which have good earning potential etc. Yes you didnt have the same advantage as the average wealthy person which makes certain things easier BUT you dont need this advantage. You had (and have) every chance to have an excellent standard of living so you need to stop blaming others and focus on what YOU can do. I personally know many people, especially from immigrant families, from significantly worse conditions of what you describe who are doing great and in many cases much better than the British born here, including some wealthy peopl. Why? Because they work hard and focus on education and instead of envying others, take advantage of the wonderful opportunities this country offers for everyone.