School debate about fertile women being employed

Totally agree with you. In my job I spend a lot of time trying to counteract vaccine misinformation and for some people, you just can’t. Their view is entrenched. But it’s not them I’m trying to persuade, it’s the ones listening who might have maybe heard this view and be wondering about it, or who don’t yet have a formed view. I’m hoping that year 8 kids don’t yet have a fully entrenched flat earther mindset! And also it’s not a view without completely rational arguments to the contrary. The argument of “why should I have to pay the wages of someone who isn’t even here because they’re off having a baby and it will make my company struggle” is at least reasonably logical. It’s not morally, ethically or legally correct, but if you heard it as someone naive to the topic you could see the reasoning behind it.

having said all that, I do also agree with all the other posters who identify that trying to have a nuanced debate about anything with kids that age can be really difficult and might have the opposite effect if not managed well!

No getting away from it, that debate topic has sinister vibes. It's lazy, and there's an underlying whiff of misogyny. As other posters have said, turning this around on fertile men would have been much more interesting and intellectually provocative.

Eh? Why is the risk that girls might make poor contributions and be branded ‘feminists’ and not that the boys in the class will feel this kind of false equivalence reinforces their superiority in society? What a bizarre statement.

Anyway - I appreciate teaching PSHE isn’t easy but the framing of this question is just wrong. Like I said, pick any other group in society and run the question again with that group substituted. You’ll balk at it for the simple reason that there are certain things which aren’t up for debate, basic human rights being one of them.

And what age bracket fits into ‘of child bearing age’ anyway? That could be anything from the start of periods to the menopause - I find that extremely offensive that the teacher would even suggest there was any pro argument for saying women just shouldn’t have jobs at all!!

It’s lazy teaching

A significant portion of my timetable is PSHE. Most of my colleagues refuse to teach it. Those who will do it will only do it if someone else presents them with the resources. It's a minefield, easy to say the 'wrong' thing. Easy to be picked up and made an example of. Don't be critical of those prepared to give it a go. You may think it was a bit cack-handed but it's great that there are teachers prepared to stick their heads above the parapet and give kids the opportunity to actually think.

I agree with others, however, that lack of life experience means we have girls falling over themselves to say naive stuff around pregnancy, birth, parent policies in the workplace, maternity pay etc etc Most don't get it, and those that do are shouted down as feminists (a title given as an insult). It takes very careful handling to come back from that in a classroom, lots of general classroom experience and a detailed understanding of the issues in hand. Would I rather it was handled by those who know what they're doing? Absolutely. But classrooms are full of young, inexperienced teachers with very little experience above them. They have to try. Some will do it better than others, inevitably, but better our teens have the opportunity than not at all.

It's not an appropriate topic for a debate because the answer is (and should be) uncontentious. A v poor choice.

My problem with this is: does it actually work? Does it actually change the views of the prejudiced? Oftentimes, no it doesn’t and here’s why: you cannot use reason to convince someone of a position they arrived at through prejudice. They didn’t use reason to arrive at the view they hold - what the hell makes you think reason will bring them out of it?

Do you understand the concept of debate?

Easier than what?

No.sexist and ageist

That’s the problem though isn’t it? This should be a fringe view but it isn’t. Several people already on this thread have admitted to not employing young women because of this. Chances are these kids are at home hearing their parents or parents friends complaining about having to pay to cover mat leave or “so and so at work who’s just gone off to have a baby again”. I used to hear it all the time in my old job. This way, they get to hear all the arguments and then dismantle them. Forcing someone to debate the position they don’t agree with is a great way to prepare them to argue their real position later in life and feel confident about their views. I have debated some frankly ludicrous propositions in my time and it’s been really valuable to put myself in the mindset of why someone might actually think that, so as to be able to argue against it more effectively. If they just ignore the issue altogether, the kids will either grow up thinking it’s a perfectly reasonable thing to think or that it’s wrong but they haven’t the confidence to say why.

Ref "Fertile women"

This discussion would have been different 30 years ago surely

With advances in modern medecine, women are now having children in their 50s, 60s, 70s.

The window of fertility has increased

I agree with the pps this isn’t a good choice of topic for debate at all. Women’s rights aren’t up for discussion! Why not get them to debate a more nuanced topic with no clear cut right or wrong answers, and one the kids can actually relate to their own life experience?

Years ago, I remember a school debate where the moot was "The British Empire was built on marmalade". Try that one for size.

If we’re concerned about women’s rights, we shouldn’t be acting like they are up for debate! They bloody aren’t!

ICYMI:

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/29/hr-heads-poll-men-women-top-jobs-england-wales

I can't think of any other group or class that it would be deemed acceptable to debate whether or not we should strip them of all the rights they have fought for since the 1950s and before.

Oh God, I wouldn’t be able to run with that title with most of the Y8 classes I’ve taught as they wouldn’t understand they have deliberately provocative statements. I once had a debate about sexism with a Y9 group and I had to write a few reports to the HOY about some very concerning views. But context is key and I suppose the teacher knows their class and used professional judgment. One would like to think anyway.

Excellent topic. Gives a new viewpoint to any kids that ACTUALLY might think this is a good idea and aren’t otherwise challenged.

This.

@BertieBotts

Mind you in year 8 I remember reading a book which involved an anecdote about animal testing and my 12 year old black and white thinking made me concoct an elaborate plan to eliminate animal testing by testing cosmetics and medicines on human prisoners instead because "at least they are guilty" errr yes... maybe not Maybe year 8s should stick to more neutral topics.

I was in a debate on vivisection in year 8, too, in the mid '70s. Utter waste of time. The other girls (oh yes, it was girls against and boys for) on the "against" team weren't remotely interested and did no work, I did the reading and was distressed by the whole thing, and the boys were essentially saying "humans are more important than animals and who cares?"

Absolutely not an appropriate topic, or handled at all well by the teacher. I can see this one devolving into "hur hur keep them home and pregnant" if a load of teenage boys are allowed to get their hands on it.

Not all men but I used to sigh when a super fit member of a football/rugby/hockey team joined the team. I had to get cover for so many with broken bones and other injuries. It rarely happened with Sporty women. So could be a debate about should men who play contact sports be employed?

If we're concerned about women's rights we should be able to defend them, and be able to articulate it. Good on them for thinking about it and getting an occasion to practice.

It's a fucking awful topic. The very act of framing it as a debate implies that there are legitimate arguments on both sides. You might as well debate whether "blacks and Irish" should be allowed in pubs and shops FFS.

You don’t need to start from a flawed premise to explore the discrimination women experience in the workplace. There are a thousand other jumping off points more interesting and less ‘sledgehammer to crack a walnut’ than this question. It’s lazy teaching. Substitute any other group in society in that question and listen to how wrong it sounds, how damaging.