AIBU to take my son into the female changing room?

Yup, that’s what they suggest you do. Personally I don’t go into male toilets because I’m female. I can’t use a toilet when we are out together and ds uses the disabled toilet. Our life is ruled by toilets.

The exception is catered for by way of the family / group changing rooms, which is the perfect way to ensure a woman’s space remains women only, whilst also ensuring the needs of families and disabled males are addressed. OP just didn’t want to queue up for one, hence the situation she found herself in.

People don't tend to be naked in toilet areas, especially female ones where there are only cubicles. If we applied the toilet rule here though, the OP should have taken her son into the male changing.

You honestly cannot see why 'pushing for allowing an exception for disabled males of primary age in circumstances where no other space is available' IS 'pushing for female guardians to be able to take their male children (over the allowed age) into female only spaces'?

To be fair to the OP, they have asked for people's views, heard a range of views, stepped back and thought about their situation (which is not going to be identical to all the other situations of no people saying what should happen based on their children, who are not the OP's child), and has taken on board what people have said.

She's just clarified part of her situation because it came up in other posts.

It seems quite clear that the OP did what she did in the moment and now afterwards has reflected.

I hope she gets somewhere with the venue about having appropriate adjustments if her child is unable to wait for family changing, or she finds a solution that works for her and her child.

(because you cannot take a child of the opposite sex into a single sex communal changing area unless they are under a certain age).
If you are a carer you are expected to use the toilets appropriate to the disabled persons sex.

At @sollenwir

I am not “pushing for female guardians to be able to take their male children (over the allowed age) into female only spaces.”

I am pushing for allowing an exception for disabled males of primary age in circumstances where no other space is available. Or at least to have some understanding and compassion as to why/how such a situation would occur.

...and if the family/disabled spaces are all occupied then the father is left in the same predicament as you are - nowhere to go (because you cannot take a child of the opposite sex into a single sex communal changing area unless they are under a certain age).

This illustrates why the argument needs to be for more accessible spaces and/or better 'policing' of who uses them, and not pushing for female guardians to be able to take their male children (over the allowed age) into female only spaces.

Exactly, and a male of that age should not have been in the female only area at all!

OMG stop defending your position! You’re sounding as though you will do the same next time, rather than admitting you were in the wrong and leaving it there!

When my younger kids go to swimming lessons with DP he uses the men's changing room which is unsurprisingly full of other dads doing the same thing and the odd older make child changing on their own. I think you are overstating the unsafeness of such spaces.

Our leisure centre has a clear policy that children can only be in opposite sex changing rooms with a parent of the correct sex for that changing room up to the age of 8. They also provide separate group/family changing areas that are lockable for individual families to use where there may be additional needs that prevent an older child from using the appropriate facilities by themselves.

Don't other leisure centres do similar things?

Exactly.

It hadn’t occurred to me I would have to think about separate sex space for my son until secondary level until I read this thread.

@backtowinter

The father should use the family/disabled space if available.

I don’t think any children should be going in mens changing space to be honest regardless of whether the child is disabled or not. It isn’t safe.

@Heresapickle I was more trying to say that while every parent/carer should probably consider their child(rens) needs as one of their main priorities, we all also have to accept there are times/scenarios when society has decided other people are equally important. If OP is going to fight for more inclusion, which she should, she's go a much better argument if she considers the angle that others will be coming from and factors they have to consider.

In this case they definitely have to consider her child and provide a safe space for him to change, however they also have to consider other people, and thus their provision for her child cannot exclude already existing rules and regulations regarding what they also have to/have chosen to provide for others. By her pushing for males over the allowed age to also be allowed access to female spaces she isn't considering the bigger picture.

Unfortunately this is why women and disabled people need to take an absolute zero tolerance approach to male people and able bodied people using their spaces, and the owners/managers of these spaces need to have their backs.

Obviously with accessible spaces it's more difficult to know whether someone has a hidden disability but I would be giving someone using an accessible space to change their baby when separate baby changing facilities are available very short shrift, for example.

In female only spaces the answer needs to be, "No. I don't care if you are 9 and have autism. I don't care if you really believe you are a woman deep down in your soul. You are not a girl or a woman therefore you should not be in this space. The answer is no. I don't care what your excuse is."

This is a point- different places have different rules so there should be clearer signage.

My son has swimming lessons at a private school pool and there is only one open plan changing room as far as I know- mums & dads change boys & girls all together (no adults getting changed though).

It’s conceivable that if that’s your normal you might think it’s normal everywhere unless someone/something tells you otherwise.

What's your view if the adult is a male and the child female

There was a post the other week where a father thought he could use the female toilets as his daughter needed to go.

Not having a go at you, by the way, just interested

@MargotBamborough @sollenwir I know, female spaces are for female people and not peoples beloved sons.

But it’s a pointless line of argument to say ‘your son might upset my daughter’ to people who believe that the alternative is harmful to their child. That argument won’t change their minds because people will never put other people’s children ahead of their own if they believe that to do so would be of detriment to their child.

It’s the same type of discourse as the argument about ND kids hurting others in school-

the parents of the child being hurt might feel bad for the disabled kid doing the hurting, think they should have extra support etc- but their child is being hurt and stopping that is their number one concern.- people who think their kids are in danger if they don’t stay with them in the female space will be equally unwilling to see the opposite side.

Im not disagreeing with your point at all, I’m saying that it’s a pointless angle to take in the argument with nearly everyone- they will say ‘yeah, my son matters more to me than your daughter, obviously. Why should I send my child to get hurt in the men’s space so that your child feels better?’

My position is as follows

1. womens spaces should be for women and their children up to whatever age dictated by the provider of said space.

2. where a disabled child of primary school age is incapable of going into the men’s on their own and the caregiver is female, IF there is no other accessible space provided or a disabled bathroom available, then there should be an exception made to allow the slightly older child to accompany their mother to ensure they are safe from harm. To add to this, if this occurs the older male should not be allowed into the shower area for his and others protection.

That’s it.

On a weekly basis I take my child to a private school swimming lesson, all the children up until 11 are lumped in together and aren’t harmed in the process!

@sollenwir

I expect them to honestly tell me whether or not they are ok with him being in the same space. And a lot would depend on the layout, number of people in the space as to whether my child would be changing in front of a girl or vice versa…

Personally I am capable of holding a towel around my son and shielding him in mixed use spaces - where he already changes in front of peers up to age 11!!!

I would have no problem supporting another mother and her child in the event they had faced discrimination. So I would hope others would be supportive to me and mine if we ever needed help.

This poster’s position shifts ever so slightly as the arguments present themselves, constantly shifting the goalposts to be ‘right’. It’s tedious, and fairly pointless arguing.

But that's why the rules shouldn't be flexible or open to interpretation.

Everyone thinks they and their children are more important than everybody else, but if they all behaved that way then society would break down.

Of course he matters more to her, that's natural, but when we are discussing him not being allowed in the female only space, potentially being asked to take him out, and so on, then she has to accept that overall he doesn't take priority in a female only area - females do.