To think State education is really poor?

But it's not a small sample, it's thousands of people over 20 years & I'm not alone in this particular part of this industry - I promise you. I'm sorry it's uncomfortable & sure, MN is the last place to accept this kind of criticism, but it's what I see & many others in my position see too.

Yes you're right, my apologies. Was rushing around getting ready to leave for work. I was just getting out of the car thinking about it being longer than a week.

(now I'm in, should say I've an issue with remembering & the concept of time periods, my brain doesn't work for it. I often have to check with DH about stuff 🙄. So the rest of what I said still stands. I always found it odd that the most affluent were able to take advantage of the pre-season prices for holidays)

@Caerulea actually most private schools break up approx 3 weeks prior to state schools ie first week July. The 1 week difference would be more suggestive of state schools from a different LA/County.

@Caerulea I've never said that bullying doesn't happen, my point was that you can't tar all state/private kids with the same behaviour just because you have witnessed a small sample of that population.

I understand what you're saying but it's a different point to mine - however just because your daughter hasn't experienced bullying doesn't mean it doesn't exist in private schools, it very much does.

I am talking about my observations over a long period of time in a very specific situation where you wouldn't ordinarily have this cross-section. This isn't 'I work at McDonald's' vs 'I work at Dinner' where the customers are largely from the same background which is generally true of every day life where there is natural separation in hobbies/eating out /sports etc etc

In one respect it's obvious, quite often due to RP but there are other things very specific to the area I'm in. But more literally, they break up a week earlier for summer holidays than state schools do.

Remember - this isn't necessarily a class observation it's a private vs state school observation

@KevinDeBrioche as do state parents who kids feel they are entitled to continually disrupt whole classes and prevent other kids from learning. Like I said, there are entitled kids in all settings. DDs school makes sure the kids are very aware of their privilege and generally turns out well adapted, rounded and humble students. Not all private schools do but there again not all state schools do either because let's not forget that some wealthy parents send their kids to state schools too.

Not directly, on an individual level, no. When I worked at an excellent private girls' school, quite a few parents told me that the biggest reason they were sending their daughters there was the kinds of students they would be with (in terms of behaviour and aspirations, but also diversity). I can see why. The students made it a pleasure to teach there too.

Unfortunately, knowing, understanding and having empathy about the reasons for the high levels of poor behaviour in many state schools doesn't make it any easier to learn or teach in them. It is understandable that many parents (and teachers) will avoid that if they are able to.

Some people seem to think that even admitting the incontrovertible fact that those differences between most state and most private schools exist is inherently snobby. Pretending the problems don't exist doesn't make them go away.

There is a level of entitlement though. I know kids who literally believe they are better people because they attend/ed a fee paying school. As parents that’s a message you need to quash, and not all do.

@Caerulea well DD went state primary and now private secondary so I can compare to the other kids in the village who go to state secondary and their experiences as she is still friends with some of them. DD has zero issues on the school buses Vs her friend who had her hair chopped off on the bus home from the state school plus lots of low level bullying every day.
My point is that we each have our own experiences but I would never tar all state school pupils based on that very small sample. There are good and bad kids at all schools.

I wouldn't want to make blanket statements like that, there are some proper shits at my kids schools lol (eldest was one of them at some points 😬), just like there were at mine. I'm really explaining what I see in very specific circumstances.

I'm explaining what I see with my own eyes over more than two decades, call it inverse snobbery if you like. Fwiw I don't think it's all kids from that background (I mean, DH went to boarding school & I quite like him).

By 'family setting' I meant in that moment out with the family having lunch/dinner.

And yes, I can well imagine there's an increase of low level anti-social behaviour exactly as you describe, I can't deny that. But I'm talking about a specific situation in how differently private school kids behave vs state kids that I see day in day out where I can draw a direct comparison. Really, there aren't many situations where you can do that cos generally the two groups are entirely separate.

@Newuser75 as are the kids at DDs private school. You can't attribute a narrow set of behaviours to an entire group of 1000s of children. There are entitled kids at both state and private schools just as there are decent kids at both.

@Caerulea I can't say I'm not surprised at this as the kids at my sons school are lovely, polite kids. As are the kids at their clubs and their other friends who are from state school.

@Caerulea the counter sweeping generalisation of your point is that whenever state schools break up around here the low level anti-social behaviour ramps up as do as the number of kids hanging around Mcdonald's vaping.
Both statements are prejudiced and snobby, yours is inverse snobbery.
How do you that "the private school kids just aren't as happy in that family setting?". Have you actual evidence for theory unhappiness, that is a ridiculous thing to say.

Can't speak to the academic argument on state vs private beyond opinion, but I CAN speak on first hand experience with the two groups over many years.

My job (food service) means I interact with the full spectrum of class & let me tell you - there's a wild, WILD difference between state & private school kids. There is a week before holiday season kicks off when it's just the private school families that are here & it's the worst week of the whole season. The kids tend to be incredibly rude & demanding if they deign to talk to you at all, even into their teens they'll often not look at you when you talk to them & will talk through their parents. They are FAR more likely to have 'allergies', specific food requirements, need to change menus or make up dishes entirely. They leave the most amount of mess, chairs strewn around, rubbish & food on the floor. Those families are the least patient & most likely to get agressive & nasty if things go awry with the dads being the worst.

If it's not the above then it's children being ignored by the parents whilst they get drunk/treat themselves & the kids brushed off - sometimes with the nanny they've brought with them who is similarly ignored.

There's an arrogance & aloofness that state kids just do not tend to have &, frankly, the private school kids just aren't as happy in that family setting.

Prior to my 20yrs in this part of the world & this industry I'd never have imagined this to have been the case. I'd have assumed the opposite & it absolutely informed my decision to use the state system.

(for clarity, this is not just my experience, it's across the board in this industry for staff EVEN those who were privately educated themselves!)

Agreed. I'm very academically inclined and have A very academic career but everyone should have a broader education than just GCSES.

It's why we spend a lot on extra curriculars for our children

I don't think it's necessarily the mark of a good school either. But as I said, I'm only talking about what worked for us and I picked the school I did because I could see it would work for us in a way that almost any other school would not have done. Lots of slots meant DD had as many as she wanted for creative subjects - and I do actually think lots of creative opportunities is the mark of a good school. She had plenty of time for extra-curricular opportunities too including music and performance, though none of the extra-curricular stuff was sport because she hates it.

In fact, I also think that if you have a child who may struggle to achieve pass grades in English and Maths which are the passport to the next step why make them do 8 subjects? Why not do your best six or whatever and concentrate on doing well in them? Or do them in a more staggered way that means you don't have to be struggling with lots of them all at once? But you can't because Progress 8 etc and eBacc.

I don't think the one size fits all model serves anyone particularly well, tbh. And so flexibility was one of the things that informed our choice.

I agree with this. Even the most academic schools around here “only” tend to do 11 which I think is more than enough.

Incidentally-I really don't think doing loads of GCSEs is a mark of a good school. One of my children went to a high performing grammar school where they did a maximum of 9 unless they had a very good reason to do more. The idea was that it freed up time for non exam stuff-performance, volunteering, more sport or music....

Personally don’t want to pay higher taxes and quite happy with state education my 5 children have received/are receiving, so what if a private school offers all bells and whistles, that’s why you pay extra for it

Well, I can only speak from my own experience and preferences but I don't think 6 other slots is the norm in state schools, or even 4. Eng Lang, Lit, Maths, three sciences, a language and a humanity is 7 slots. There are plenty of schools that only take 9 GCSEs per child. Some do 8. That wouldn't have worked for us. There is no option to do even three languages and some don't offer the option to do two. Doing triple science means using up a slot generally and I don't think that's particularly helpful either. Doing more than one creative subject seems hard to find in the state sector, too.

If you are going to do well in Media Studies and enjoy it, I absolutely think you should do it instead of history or whatever. I think flexibility is really important.

I agree with most of your points:

1. Absolutely important to find a job you're well suited to. It's not just about salary. I'm in a job I love that doesn't pay a great deal.
2. There is no reason to be disappointed in someone being a teacher. It's a great profession. I'm just saying that some parents who send their children to private schools will hope their investment will result in a high status career for their kids. Note, I'm emphasising some parents. The post I was responding to said "If you send your child to private school you'll set them up for life". I asked for clarification. What does that mean? They'll go on to have great careers? They'll develop confidence? They'll make rich connections? How are they being set up for life? My friend sent her sons to private schools and told me the main reason was because of the connections they'll make. This seriously winds me up for so many different reasons!!
3. Not sure that I agree that state education has recently declined. I went to a very deprived comprehensive in late 80s/early 90s. The school was almost closed down at one point. Still, many of my friends went on to have quite brilliant careers. My daughter is now at a state secondary school and receiving a far superior education to the one I received.

I think many people who believe private school will ‘set kids up for life’ are often the kind who ship kids off thinking ‘job done, they’ll be a success’ and forget they actually need good support at home too. When I worked in a private school you’d be surprised how many safeguarding referrals were made too, even for neglect. Yea you can neglect a child whilst throwing money at their education.