To not forgive?

The thing is, DD is just as much DH's child as OP's. As such, she really can't stop him from taking DD to his parents' any more than he could stop her from taking her to her parents'. She can ask, beg, demand but if he is bound and determined, there is really nothing she can do other than continue to stress the toxicity and the reasons why DD shouldn't be around them. Even should she threaten to leave that wouldn't help because he'd just take her on 'his time'.

I 100% agree that DD shouldn't be around DH's parents. But for those of you saying she should 'refuse to allow' DD to have contact with them, what do you all suggest she do if/when he leaves to take DD to his parents'? Engage in a tug of war? Grab DD and run and hide? Create a scene in front of DD?

I guess my point is that it's not helpful to OP to make her feel she is responsible for keeping DD away from them if her DH won't do so himself. All she can do is work on him to agree to it and hopefully go NC himself.

, god knows what she’s going to be like once she’s sunk into DD and can turn her against us she’s already ‘told’ DD that Nanny would love to see her everyday but her nasty mummy and daddy is keeping her away.

This would be the final straw for me, your dh needs to start protecting his child from this vicious women, he can put up with it if he feels he has to but that’s his own choice. I would not have my child having contact with someone who slated their parents!

disgusting behaviour.

no forgive and no forgetting. She wouldn’t be involved in our child’s life at all.

She is a toxic nightmare and allowing her to have contact with your DD can only ever have negative consequences. She sounds like a narcissistic sociopath as she only ever sees things from her own perspective and cannot ever admit to being in the wrong.

Your DD doesn't need someone in her life who will lie and try and turn her against her own mother. Cut off all contact and block her and her flying monkeys on everything.

I agree with PP - keep your DD well away from these toxic people.

@Rattymcratty I honestly do not understand why you allow her to see your daughter!! especially after trying to poison her young mind with accusations regarding her being permitted to see child every day!

You should block her. He should at least block her while you’re away. Come on. I wouldn’t let anyone near my children who wasn’t decent to me, never mind slagged me off to them. I can’t believe you’ve been letting her in your home, contact you on the phone or see your daughter. No, enough of all the bullshit.

I assume she still hasn't apologized. You would think that might be easier than staging all this utter nonsense!?

not that you would be obliged to forgive her if she did but it would be a start...

even Jesus only forgives you if you repent your sins and ask for forgiveness. (I am not religious but it sounds like Jesus seems to be on her mind).

is your DH going to try and do anything about it or is he still sitting awkwardly in the middle and wishing his life was different?

He needs to block or mute her.
I would be pissed off at this interruption on holiday.

She wouldn't be near my children.
I wouldn't be impressed with a husband who would facilitate it either.

She is a horror.
Think about moving away.
Do not back down on this.
She is a truly awful person and that will never change.
No good will ever come from being involved with her.
She's too toxic.

You can forgive without changing your boundaries. I forgive the ex for abusing me, but I wouldn't let him wihtin 100metres of me and would call the Police if he did come near.

'Forgive and forget' is a constant refrain of the abusive. They aren't sorry really, they just want you to 'press the reset button' so they can abuse you again.

For me, forgiveness is letting go of any feeling that something is owed, and letting go of any tie between me and the other person - and hatred and resentment is a tie as strong or stronger than love. That cannot be rushed. It is a process, and it is perfectly possible to accept an apology without forgiving.

But some behaviours are so bad that the person cannot be allowed back into my life. OP, your MIL would be in that category. Her apology is no real apology in that she has no intention of changing. If she had, she would accept and understand that her behaviour means you do not want to have a relationship with her.

A true apology is about the comfort of the other person, not to manipulate an outcome for yourself.

I would not have her seeing my child if she was whispering about me in the ear of that child, fuck that no way.
i can see why your H doesn’t want to go NC, but I wouldn’t want those people in my house. I’d say he needs to meet them out of the home and they wouldn’t be seeing my child on their own, either.

Ah OP. I think in your case forgiveness would be a continuation of ‘letting go’ ALL future issues. It’s constant boundary pushing with her so it’s not something you can leave in the past it’s going to be very present all the time.

My ex mil ruined my wedding and I havnt spoken to her since. I don’t stew about it anymore - I was so upset for about six months after - maybe even depressed. I just don’t have anything to say to a thoroughly unpleasant person.

My ex was awful during the separation and whilst I do try and work hard to forgive - for my sake only so it doesn’t burn me up - I have to keep him at arms length for my own protection.

It’s like getting bitten by a snake - I know what they are capable of so won’t get close enough to let them do it again. But her family will be so used to this behaviour they won’t see it the way you do.

I think your DH should go for some councilling because it’s him now that’s inviting her in which impacts your life and your Dds. I know what that pressure is like. Also you don’t have to put your feelings behind his all the time especially when he is in the thick of his guilt and being manipulated,

Wise words

I find it so weird how people put the onus on repairing the relationship in the victim.
”Yeah, your MIL treated you like absolute garbage, verbally abused you and your husband, is trying to emotionally manipulate your young child, but faaaaaamily!”

Wanna quote the Bible? Sure. Let’s start with the leave and cleave. Husband isn’t in the middle. He chose his wife when he married her.

Then we can move onto Titus 3:10-11:

10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.

I swear, loads of people love to make Biblical proclamations, but I really don’t think many of them have actually read the darn thing.

Forgiveness and reconciliation are two separate things. I can (and have) forgiven people, but have zero interest in ever being around them again. To put it in Christian terms, I know that being around them will result in them sinning again with their words and actions. The kindest thing I can do, for everyone involved, is to stay away.

OP's MIL threatened to and then did disown her own son for not allowing her to completely take over their wedding planning (despite not even making a financial contribution). He was broken by her actions. She doesn't love her son and I doubt she genuinely loves her grand-daughter. This is all about control, saving face and keeping up appearances. The face that she brings Jesus into this is laughable. I'm an atheist but surely Jesus only forgives when there is true repentance? MIL has never given even an insincere apology, never mind being genuinely sorry for ruining their wedding and hurting her own son.

OP and her DH should cut her off completely and remove her toxic influence from their daughter's life.

What does your DH say when his mum badmouths you to your daughter? He should issue an ultimatum that if she ever speaks negatively about you to your DD, the contact will immediately stop.

You have been more than accommodating by letting her have a relationship with your DD and lots of people wouldn't do that after what she has said and done.

My mum went no contact with my grandmother due to hideous comments she made to my mum after her second stillbirth. She didn't stop me seeing her, but I didn't want to visit without my mum.

This Christmas season should be about families coming together, in all their weird and challenging complexities, in peace and love

In that case for the sake of peace and love the MIL needs to apologise.

Message her back and say “since you mention Jesus it also says in the bible “do unto others”
“reap what you sow”

Some wrongs are harder to forgive than others. Some people are harder to forgive than others. What does forgiveness look like? Imagine the resentment you feel by not forgiving is like holding a burning coal in your hand because you want to throw it at someone who has wronged you. Who are you hurting by holding on to it? Not them. Letting go of the burning coal is what forgiveness looks like. By letting go you are no longer hurting yourself because of what others have done to you. The problem is forgiveness is an ongoing process. Once you choose to forgive you have to commit to keeping it going for that person and constantly work on it until you are over that particular wrong. And not everyone can do that bit because it’s hard. If you forgive, you can’t keep dragging the wrong up every time they get under your skin.

Jesus did teach us to forgive. That is true. What you do with that is up to you. This Christmas season should be about families coming together, in all their weird and challenging complexities, in peace and love.

As I said in a previous post, we are only seeing one side of this multi - sided story, as seen through your lens. That aside, it is very clear that you have no time for your partner’s mum and your child’s grandmother. Are you perhaps, maybe, getting something from hating her? I feel sad for your partner that he is forced to be piggy in the middle. Your hatred of her will never stop his love for his mum, nor her love for him and her grandchild. His loyalty will be to you, but he will be torn. None of this is his making. You and his mum and how you are with each other is bound to make him unhappy, not just her.

The fact is that his mum will continue to be a problem in your life until she dies, or unless the marriage ends. She’s his mum and is not going anywhere. For your own sake, and to help make life a little less challenging for your partner, perhaps you need to find a new way of handling this/her/your reactions?

Why don't you just block her? If you stop giving her access to you, and get DH to man up about not having her over to the house (they can meet elsewhere) then it'd go some way to reducing her power over you?

You can forgive actions once they're over, and that isn't the case here. She'll continue doing the same thing because she's fundamentally bad.

@Rattymcratty

It probably would have been best to ignore her message. She isn't hearing you. I know it gives momentary satisfaction to let her have it, but you actually accomplished her aim in contacting you. Now she will go back to everyone and sob about how mean you are not wanting to be with the faaahhhmmmiillllyy for Christmas. She didn't want 'forgiveness' from you, she wanted ammo to use against you. And you rose to the bait.

Do you not have her blocked everywhere? You should. And if she creates new accounts (as I mentioned upthread) block them and notify the website that she is harassing you.

Since you say DD still has contact with her, I assume your DH is just as milk-soppy as before. I think you need to think carefully about future contact and whether or not DH will actually monitor what she says and actually speak up to her. Because if not, she will poison DD against you.

It may be a double edged sword, but especially if DH isn't speaking up to her, do you want him to tell you what she says and do you trust him to be truthful?

She’s not going to change, OP. She sincerely thinks she’s faultless and/or doesn’t know how to show regret or remorse or offer an apology. It’ll be about saving face as the matriarch, supported and enabled by her DH.

I feel bad for your DH. It’s so hard to detach from parents, especially when they hold other people to ransom too (eg your BILs who she clearly has equally under her thumb). He can go the rest of her life feeling like this and behaving this way. It’s tragic, in a grown man. A father himself. But it really is hard to detach and say no.

Is he, and are you both, open to speaking to a relationship expert who can give you some techniques and methods to cope with this behaviour? It may not be a case of cutting her/everyone off completely. It may just be asserting boundaries, or YOU dictating the terms of your relationship and referring her back to them when she pushes them. There will have to be an ultimatum at some point, so you’d both need to get comfortable with that.

It’s awful dealing with people like this. They suck the life and energy out of you. Make life a misery. But they needn’t. It really does help if you feel a sense of control. Imagine and come to terms with the worst before asserting yourself.