To think this “crackdown” on benefit fraud is absolutely pathetic

But this isn’t about how easy or otherwise it is to find work. It’s about forcing very sick and disabled people to find work or lose benefit. With no regard to whether suitable employment exists, or the likely effect on their health. It’s about knowing that these people are vulnerable and unable to work, and not caring. The government can’t change the fact of the illness or the disability, so they change the eligibility conditions and redefine what sick and disabled means. Suddenly hundreds of thousands of vulnerable people no longer qualify. They did it with the transition from disability living allowance to personal independence payment. They decided that too many people were claiming DLA, so introduced PIP as a replacement benefit and changed the eligibility conditions so that it was much harder to get. Overnight hundreds of thousands of people became ineligible - not because they were no longer disabled, but because they were no longer disabled ‘enough’. That’ how it works.

Is there a crackdown tho? There's always been a "crackdown" on 'benefit' claimants since I can remember (vintage 1962).

Yes there were some good 'benefit harvest' years in the early 2000s, but those days are now long gone. It really isn't the 'lifestyle' choice that many are led to believe it is.

Hard to fathom for those that live elsewhere but there really is vast swathes of the UK where very few job opportunities exist.

Hence the existence of a Levelling-Up Agenda, ineffective though it is. There are some areas of the UK where you have to have very serious issues to be unable to find work, and in the very same places some very mediocre workers gain some great job titles and pay to go with it.

Then the other side of the coin, some very great and capable workers have no job to go to.

This is the whole point isn’t it ? Once again conditionality and sanctions are being introduced before they’ve thought through where all these WFH vacancies are going to come from or how they’re going to convince employers to take on severely disabled and very sick people who, in some cases have been unemployed for years, as employees. Not to mention how they’re going to solve the problem of those who are on the NHS waiting list for treatment/surgery before they are fit to work. And it speaks volumes about the lack of proper consideration that they’re threatening sick and disabled people with cutting off access to free prescriptions if they don’t engage with the new rules. Talk about short sighted - you couldn’t make this shit up !!

A relative of mine was asked to provide bank statements to DWP as part of a routine check. He was called into the office and cautioned that he was being investigated for fraud. Why ? One of the bank statements had flagged up a direct debit into a post office savings account that he had forgotten to declare to DWP. There was only a couple of hundred in there but it was enough to get his benefit stopped while they investigated it, and it scared the hell out of him. That’s the kind of thing that’s likely to be flagged by AI, and it’s enough to drop many people in the you know what if they’ve genuinely forgotten something like this.

Working from home is still work... and some people can not work.
Plus, who is going to employ someone who has maybe been out the workforce for years... and has no IT skills. WFH roles don't tend to be entry level.

You do realise that it’s the very most sick and disabled people they’re proposing to force these proposals on ? People who have legitimately been assessed as not fit for any work ? And where are all of these WFH vacancies going to come from ? How many WFH jobs do you know of that don’t ask the employee to come into the office at all ? I’m all for disabled people working if they can, but the government knows they’re targeting the most vulnerable people. They can’t magically change the fact that these people are genuinely too sick and disabled to work. So they move the goalposts so that they are assessed differently and hey presto, suddenly most of them can work.

Depends what the AI bot is instructed to look for I suppose. Payments in and savings over £6000 and I'm fine. It definitely won't find that. It can clear my overdraft if it likes though 😂

Totally agree. The AI system will likely be programmed to look for the slightest hint of anything out of the ordinary and benefits will be stopped as soon as something is flagged up. It will then be up to the claimant to prove they’re not doing anything wrong. While that may be easy to prove in most cases, it’s the devastating effect of benefit being stopped while the claimant is investigated that will do the most damage.

Yeah, but those who are not working and of age to work and can work from home are fucking up the economy by not contributing to it. Just on principle.

This is the problem with AI.

A few years ago I was investigated after an ex made a vexatious report on me. I offered my bank statements to the DWP but they declined. I assume because they'd already looked into them. But that will have been a PERSON looking at it.
My benefits were never even suspended at that time. Automation will be a different scenario I suspect.

This has the potential to do a lot of harm to a lot of innocent people.

I’d support that ! Government have lost sight of who is supposed to be serving who haven't they ? Perhaps if we all got together and lobbied for the finances of MPs to be scrutinised in the same way - with particular note to the claims for expenses, in light of the absolute shit show a few years ago. And while we’re at it maybe we should ask for access to the records of how many in the House of Lords sign the attendance book to claim their £300 a day, then leave. That particular gravy train should have been stopped years ago.

I have my mum’s benefit paid into my account - she has dementia and I have her LPA and am her representative with DWP. So my account would definitely be up for scrutiny even though the benefits paid into it are mums’. AI bot wouldn’t know the difference and other payments going into that account would be flagged as potential fraud and mums’ benefits stopped while they look into it. See what I mean by not thought through properly ?

I would imagine this would be flagged up if the DWP are monitoring the account into which your benefits are paid. They would see money being transferred out into another account in your name, so obviously that would attract attention.

Oh God yes. I hadn't even thought of that. What a shitshow honestly!

Also, some people have their benefits paid into someone else's account. I know a few people who do that, as they simply can not look after their own finances.
Will the bank accounts of people not even claiming for themselves also be subject to such scrutiny?

I assume they will monitor 2nd accounts with the same bank as well as the account the benefits are paid into?

I get mine paid into a savings account with no debit card attached and transfer what I need to my current account when I am making a purchase or to cover a DD.

I only do it this way to control my spending better. Less chance of an impulse buy this way and I can see more easily what money I have left.

But I'm now concerned that this might look as if I'm trying to hide something.

Oh the paranoia ffs. No one should have to worry about such trivia. 🙄

You can want all you like, but the plain fact is that when you claim benefit you enter into a contract with the government, which gives them the right to collect and share information about you. It’s this existing legislation that will be built on to allow for AI. And DWP already allow claimants to protect themselves from wrongful accusations - if the investigation clears the claimant of any wrongdoing the case will be closed and benefit will be put back into payment. That’s what happens now. AI will just make it easier and cheaper to implement.

The government know there will be some people who really can’t work. This is not about supporting sick and disabled people, it’s about introducing conditionality and sanctions where there were none before, for people not previously compelled to work. They know that they can’t change the fact of disability and serious illness. But they can move the goalposts on how that’s defined and make it difficult for people not to engage with the system, via sanctions and stopping benefit.

The first step is dismantling the work capability assessment - the mechanism for protecting the most vulnerable. Followed by removing the issue of fit notes from medics and putting them in the hands of DWP assessors - the same assessors who are making such a mess of assessing for disability benefits. So DWP control from end to end how disabled people are assessed and classed or not classed as sick/disabled or fit/unfit for work.

The AI proposal is not the same as the current system (which is bad enough imo.)

Its really weird that you cannot limit payments going in to your bank account. IDK why anyone finds the suggestion outrageous. I'm not expecting any sudden windfalls.
I want the bank to put a hold on those payments and investigate, not grass me up to an AI.

If the govt wants the right to monitor us all the time, and to create a system that penalises people when they have unexpected money paid into their bank account without their knowledge or permission; then I want the legal right to protect myself from wrongful accusations.

That happens now without AI. Someone reports you for suspected benefit fraud. DWP investigate and the minute they think they have something on you benefit is stopped while they investigate. The use of AI will be justified as protecting the public purse by detecting and stopping fraud and error sooner, therefore saving tax payers money. It is a problem from the point of view of invasion of privacy, and yes, it’ll be the forerunner to wide scale monitoring. But if the government want to introduce it they have the legal framework in which to do it and the justification.

I don't think it's going to work too well to try and force everyone sick and disabled, into work.

Some may be able to, but many won't, and sanctions are just a sledgehammer cracking a nut. 🙁

I don’t get why you are saying you can’t stop people paying money into your bank account. It’s your bank account !!

And if you have read and understood any of my previous numerous posts on the thread you would know the answer to that question. No. I do not support the proposal, but it doesn’t concern me nearly as much as what the government are planning to impose on the very sickest and most disabled in the country.

I don’t hold with the ‘if you’re doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear’ viewpoint. Most sick and disabled people are not doing anything wrong, but if these proposals go ahead, they will have everything to fear - they will still be sick and disabled but the government will have moved the goalposts on how that’s defined for benefit purposes. Same goes with the proposal to monitor bank accounts. It’s an invasion of privacy and another step towards dehumanising and demonising benefit claimants - and a stealth move in the direction of eventually monitoring everyone. And the worry is that even if you don’t think you’re doing anything wrong, the AI bot may find something perfectly innocent to flag up which will get your benefit suspended while DWP investigate. That clear enough for you ?

Its crazy. I don't understand how people can't see that the State monitoring people who have committed no crime is a problem.
Banks can transfer money into your account by accident and there's nothing you can do to stop that happening. The AI triggers an investigation, the DSS stops your benefits, and you'll have to clear your name. Guilty until proven innocent is not justice.
And don't think they'll stop with benefit claimants.

They have no right to invade peoples financial privacy.
MPs are paid by the taxpayer, maybe we should be allowed to see how they spend their taxpayers money. Shades of China there and the credit system.

This government is fucking awful.

I know you don't get the problem I'm trying to point out, but do you support the proposal?