Page 19 | To think this “crackdown” on benefit fraud is absolutely pathetic

MissLou0 · 2023-11-09T00:34:11+00:00

We lose hundreds of billions from tax avoidance compared to 1 billion on benefit fraud and nothing is done about it, because those are the Tory donors. Michelle Mone just stole £28 million from taxpayers for her PPE scam, she’s not in trouble, and she of course also hides her hundreds of millions offshore. We lose a small amount from benefit fraud, and as a result everyone who claims any sort of benefit including disability benefits banks are going to be monitored. The graph below doesn’t even scratch the surface of how much is lost to tax avoidance. For example Rupert Murdoch is worth £17 billion and he hasn’t paid tax in years, personal tax or on his businesses. And he’s ONE person. These people are not targeted yet the most desperate and vulnerable are. This is completely ignored by the media as the majority of newspaper owners are hiding their money offshore. I’m in a situation where I don’t need to claim any benefits but I have family who are disabled who have had to fight for even the tiniest amount to live on, and they are now having to deal with this invasion of privacy which will make not even 0.000001% of what cracking down on tax avoidance would.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 09/11/2023 07:37

Jomasell · 09/11/2023 07:21

I think the issue with benefit fraud is its an easy win. Most of us know someone claiming when they shouldnt. I know 3 people in one family claiming pip, 1 works and the other 2 could work but dont bother. Its pathetic but its in my face. If its the tax avoidance its not so obvious as you cant see a persons tax affairs so easily.

If the other 2 worked they’d still be entitled to PIP as it’s not an out of work benefit so your point is a bit odd?

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 09/11/2023 07:36

I wish people would find it as enraging that so much money is wasted on utter needless appeals. those figures are always quietly kept away from any discussions.

The nearest tribunal centre here has 15 rooms. Every day there is one lawyer and one doctor in every room. Many have a welfare rights person as well. All independent of the DWP and at a princely cost. It is so busy that it takes almost a year to get an appointment.

Then 7 out of 10 PIP claimants win their appeals despite providing no new evidence.

https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/7-10-pip-appeals-won-same-evidence-dwp-already-held

Multiply those costs with cities all over the country and the figures must be absolutely massive.

7 in 10 PIP appeals won on the same evidence DWP already held | Disability Rights UK

https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/7-10-pip-appeals-won-same-evidence-dwp-already-held

Clarinet1 · 09/11/2023 07:33

Jomasell · 09/11/2023 07:21

I think the issue with benefit fraud is its an easy win. Most of us know someone claiming when they shouldnt. I know 3 people in one family claiming pip, 1 works and the other 2 could work but dont bother. Its pathetic but its in my face. If its the tax avoidance its not so obvious as you cant see a persons tax affairs so easily.

PIP is not means-tested or dependent on whether you work - it’s about what you can
or can’t do.

ginandtonicwithlimes · 09/11/2023 07:31

Jomasell · 09/11/2023 07:21

I think the issue with benefit fraud is its an easy win. Most of us know someone claiming when they shouldnt. I know 3 people in one family claiming pip, 1 works and the other 2 could work but dont bother. Its pathetic but its in my face. If its the tax avoidance its not so obvious as you cant see a persons tax affairs so easily.

How do you know they could work?

Crispedia · 09/11/2023 07:31

along with the changes being proposed to eligibility for ill health/disability benefit

@CherryMyBrandy , may I ask what the proposed changes are? Many thanks.

Sallyh87 · 09/11/2023 07:30

Theoretically, I disagree with benefit fraud and people getting something they shouldn’t while I work and get nothing.

However, if this change makes it harder for the vast majority people who do deserve them then I can’t see the point. Also, benefits are so small that even those few who claim when they aren’t entitled are not exactly living the high life.

I am more concerned by the amount of unclaimed benefit. They need to overhaul the system and make it easier and more straightforward. That money could be helping people live a better life.

LlynTegid · 09/11/2023 07:29

What the government say and what they do in practice is different. Remember there was going to be guidance about trans issues in schools by last Easter, bully dogs banned by the end of the year, for example.

AgnesX · 09/11/2023 07:28

There's a hard core of the population who hate seeing someone getting something they're not. You just have to see some of the posts on MN where people always have examples of someone living the high life off the back of the taxpayer or believing that certain groups don't deserve what they get.

Itsnotchristmasyet · 09/11/2023 07:27

Beautiful3 · 09/11/2023 07:10

I'd rather they ended subsidised food and drink for MPs. Tax payers are charged 17 million to subsidise MPs food. Please someone on here start a petition. Let's see how they like it, living like normal folk, paying for their own food.

That’s insane!

And that’s on top of their already high wages!

No wonder they have no clue what it’s like living in the real world.

Itsnotchristmasyet · 09/11/2023 07:25

but I have family who are disabled who have had to fight for even the tiniest amount to live on

I can’t stand benefit fraud for this reason.

So many people have to fight to get what they’re entitled to, which is often a pittance and this is because so many people take the piss.

I will never understand why MN is so comfortable with benefit fraud.

Every thread about it is met with support from so many MNers - someone renting their council house as an air B&B, claiming to be a single parent but living with a partner and both working FT or pretending to have or their children to have an illness just to get benefits.

It honestly makes me think why am I not committing benefit fraud, if everyone else seems to and those that aren’t on benefits thinks it ok.

The reason I don’t is because obviously it’s morally wrong but also it’s these people who make it difficult for the rest of us.

The people who genuinely need these benefits struggle to get it or get the tiniest amount, because of the idiots who take the mick.

We should absolutely start at the top and go for multi million pound businesses first but I also agree with cracking down on benefit fraud too.

Doggymummar · 09/11/2023 07:24

Tracker1234 · 09/11/2023 06:34

Inheirtance tax can be reduced with planning.

It can be avoided completely if it's done right

notfeeblebutPhoebe · 09/11/2023 07:21

I am not disputing the figures at all.
Living in a community as I did back in the 70s and 80s where benefit fraud and 'cash in hand' work was common it was corrosive. Women claiming benefit for another child, they borrowed their sisters toddler for a visit to claim.
The difference between honest and dishonest became blurred. Children were almost being taught by their family who it is permissible to steal from.

HaddawayAndShite · 09/11/2023 07:21

LevelledPeach · 09/11/2023 06:23

How can you not understand?

Benefit claimants are being targeted for political reasons, when in fact, it's a tiny proportion of monetary loss to the treasury.

The time spent on policy and the ramifications of implementing any policy is entirely disproportionate to it's impact on monies available to the treasury.

Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, to show everyone you've got a sledgehammer.

It's typical rhetoric of the right-wing. Give a high profile to any perceived lack of fairness in spending money on the poor, whilst entirely ignoring actual unfairness and inequality that, if solved, would improve the lives of the many.

District and divide. Privatise profits, socialise debts.

It's the Tory way.

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Very well put!

Jomasell · 09/11/2023 07:21

I think the issue with benefit fraud is its an easy win. Most of us know someone claiming when they shouldnt. I know 3 people in one family claiming pip, 1 works and the other 2 could work but dont bother. Its pathetic but its in my face. If its the tax avoidance its not so obvious as you cant see a persons tax affairs so easily.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 09/11/2023 07:19

It should also be remembered that the sums touted for benefit fraud are very often actually for fraud and error with zero clarity of how much is outright error on DWP’s part, how much is error because of over complicated systems and how much is actual outright fraud.

AutumnLeaves333 · 09/11/2023 07:18

the thing that pisses me off is that they gets so upset about benefit fraud but literally don’t give a shit about tax evasion. My ex is self employed and not declaring all his income, it’s probably not a huge amount but enough to make significant difference to the amount he pays in maintenance and HMRC aren’t interested at all. If I was reporting him for benefit fraud I’m sure they would be all over it!

ElFupacabra · 09/11/2023 07:18

ememem84 · 09/11/2023 07:03

@littleblackcat27 I imagine that @rwalker is using one of the many LEGAL tax avoidance methods to minimise the level of IHT payable.

nothing wrong with that. It’s all above board and as long as it’s done correctly no issues.

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Nothing legally wrongX. Morally, well some people just don’t have them. Me, me, me and obsessed with wealth and money.

Bedbynoon · 09/11/2023 07:18

Living on benefits is bloody horrible and people get in a cycle where they are scared to take work and be less better off. I personally have no problem with a parent doing a bit cash in hand cleaning to their kids some Xmas presents and maybe be able to stick some extra money in the gas to keep warm over winter. There are bigger issues than going after struggling people trying to get by whichever way they can atm.

onestepfromgrace · 09/11/2023 07:16

@NalafromtheLionKing many benefit claimants work a lot harder for minimum wage. The pandemic shone a light on these critical workers.

They need subsidies from benefits because by the government’s own measly standards their employers don’t pay enough to live. Many of those employers use tax avoidance schemes so the government is subsidising the employer twice over.

Landlords are getting rich because rents are so high. When working families can’t afford rent the landlord is also gaining from the benefit system.

How many people do you really think live on benefit as a lifestyle choice?

TigerRag · 09/11/2023 07:15

FloweryName · 09/11/2023 07:12

A small amount of privacy being invaded isn’t much in exchange for money to live on.

There has to be some kind of deterrent to committing benefit fraud. Starling from the taxpayer, other people in need, is a horrible crime.

Morally it seems much worse that avoiding tax because it’s people keeping their own earned money, not taking away other peoples. And usually people who are able to avoid a small amount of tax are still paying a lot of tax and making a contribution to the economy.

It won't be a "small amount of privacy"

ginandtonicwithlimes · 09/11/2023 07:14

FloweryName · 09/11/2023 07:12

A small amount of privacy being invaded isn’t much in exchange for money to live on.

There has to be some kind of deterrent to committing benefit fraud. Starling from the taxpayer, other people in need, is a horrible crime.

Morally it seems much worse that avoiding tax because it’s people keeping their own earned money, not taking away other peoples. And usually people who are able to avoid a small amount of tax are still paying a lot of tax and making a contribution to the economy.

Money you get isn't enough to live on.

tpxqi · 09/11/2023 07:13

AutumnComfort · 09/11/2023 07:00

Then maybe they should start by making it illegal…?

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Someone who clearly doesn’t understand how tax works.

YomAsalYomBasal · 09/11/2023 07:13

tpxqi · 09/11/2023 07:11

This government is corrupt and has stolen billions from the taxpayer, that’s true.

Bur that doesn’t mean that the ballooning welfare bill is also acceptable. The number of net contributors is shrinking while the net recipients increase. This situation is unsustainable. And benefit fraud is more common than reported or found. You only have to look at MN. Though there is a strange phenomenon on MN where people get very defensive over benefit fraud. There must be a lot of people on here who are robbing the taxpayer themselves, if you look at the way they defend fraudsters and police onto OP if someone starts a thread about a relative of friend being a fraudster.

The ballooning welfare bill is mainly due to old age pensions.

FloweryName · 09/11/2023 07:12

A small amount of privacy being invaded isn’t much in exchange for money to live on.

There has to be some kind of deterrent to committing benefit fraud. Starling from the taxpayer, other people in need, is a horrible crime.

Morally it seems much worse that avoiding tax because it’s people keeping their own earned money, not taking away other peoples. And usually people who are able to avoid a small amount of tax are still paying a lot of tax and making a contribution to the economy.

ememem84 · 09/11/2023 07:12

I work in offshore finance so deal with Uk tax advisors a lot. We work out what’s best for each client. They pay what they owe. But typically there are legal methods that Hmrc are aware of which are used.

one client lives in London has a Uk based investment portfolio. will only be subject to CGT if they invest in Uk assets. So they don’t. He still pays his income tax. But won’t pay CGT.