To think this “crackdown” on benefit fraud is absolutely pathetic

I don't think if there is suspected fraud the monitoring of an account is unjustified. Fraud is a serious crime that gets you a prison sentence. I think you can justify it easy enough or at least there would be a good argument to say why it was acceptable.

Yes, exactly, how does that work when AI is being deployed using unscrupulous algorithms? Show your workings with respect to the Human Rights Act.

Also on appeals. This is designed to cut that cost too. The chances of a claimant appealing are far less, still less being able to make an argument against the findings of AI. Costs cut everywhere

Exactly this.

And the people who give up before appeal.

I also know someone in my daughter’s support group who had to be properly persuaded not to give up when the DWP wrote to them after they won their appeal to say that they weren’t paying out yet as they are considering if they should appeal the appeal.

That person applied, was turned down, waiting 8 weeks for a mandatory reconsideration, then has waited 14 months for an appeal and is now on week 5 of the DWP considering an appeal against the appeal (which they can only do if there has been an error in law so it’s very obviously a stalling tactic as it’s happening to more and more people).

The cost of appeals is phenomenal and hidden. Plus any normal person who made the wrong decision 7 times out of 10 would lose their job. Yet it’s ok for the dwp to do that and cost everyone a fortune to rectify it (and leave someone in financial difficult)

But it wouldn’t be unsustainable if tax evasion/avoidance didn’t happen would it? (And yes, avoidance is legal but that doesn’t mean it’s right.)

I never understand this complete lack of logic….it comes up every time on these threads.

It's all very well saying cash will avoid this. But actually that gets hard, it say, you buy a plane ticket, or have another large expense that you have to run through your account.

Okay then someone else pays it for you. But then they will have their account checked too. You buy something at the airport. DWP has to the power to check you leaving the country. How did you get the money for a ticket? AI turns payments off until you explain.

So it's this AI looks for. The part where you spend in ways that look totally normal. But it will compare the pattern of your spending compared to many others.

There's an election due and the Tories are all out of ideas.

However I wonder what the figure is for people that never appeal thst would win, all thst money is saved from not having to pay pip. Not saying this is right as often the ones that don’t appeal are the most vulnerable, don’t have support to help them appeal etc

Yes, both should absolutely be dealt with. The whole point is that only one group is being dealt with though, and it's not the super rich.

Everyone I know who claims benefits and has undeclared income coming in use cash only, so monitoring bank accounts is pointless and won’t catch the majority of benefit fraudsters anyway

The system does need to change but I don’t think this is the right way to go about it

Yea. I always thought that this kind of checking would never happen because of cost, and co-ordination across government departments and then to the private sector. It would be too expensive and prone to failure.

AI has changed all of that in a moment. This has already been successfully done in part of the UK.

They were also looking at adding arrest, search & asset seizing powers along with bank account monitoring when first reported maybe a year or 2 ago which I expect would tie in but isn't being mentioned in headlines. They'd have to use the police for those aspects currently, which would at least offer some more protection given you can complain to IOPC if feel they've not followed procedures.

DWP do already request bank checks and randomly select some claiments to provide info to see if over savings limits or any signs fraud i.e undeclared income. This will be continual monitoring probably more so if you go over they can claw it back i expect than just intentional fraud. Although you'd hope they'd discount when they have to pay large backpayments from saving limits as I had 2yrs worth from claim to tribunal, sometimes it's even more because they've underpaid years.

The proposed action is to monitor bank accounts and this will be for every bank account associated with an individual not just their bank account but joint accounts and further. So not only will they be able to monitor abnormal activity but also the possible undeclared income from savings they have in associated accounts. So if you have move savings to your sisters account so you are under the limit they will know.
The banks AI systems are forensic in their action. My account is often locked down if there is abnormal activity, such as buying items at a Christmas fare last year. Because the stores have card machines but the machine is not in a registered location the activity becomes suspicious. My bank phone me and ask if I am using the card or if there is a security problem. This happens in minutes.
It also was put in special measures a few years ago when my exBIL was being investigated. I had a joint account with my sister and she had a joint account with her ex which linked our accounts. We never found out why it was a problem and I only discovered my account was in special measures when a mortgage was declined unexpectedly. Obviously banks have been able to monitor customer accounts for a long time, and it is a lot more advanced than people realise.

Legislation is required to allow DWP to access this system and they may include HMRC.

If you have nothing to hide there is no problem. If you are depositing a lot of money but with no obvious source then it will flag up.
I suspect the same people moaning about tax evasion and avoidance will also moan about privacy.
If we want to fix both systems we must have no problem having our personal finances scrutinised.
VAT evasion is another big area of lost revenue so I imagine they will be added too.

Since DWP and HMRC are intertwined the proposed investigations may well uncover significant unpaid tax associated with fraudulent benefit claims. People who commit fraud are happy to do it across the board.

Of course cash is the way forward but it is becoming more and more difficult to use cash. Paying your household bills is difficult using cash. Any forensic investigation flagged up by a fraud case will involve all an individuals living costs and how they pay them. So if your benefits and wages are not being used to pay utilities or other significant outgoings then it will flag up. You may then have to explain where cash is coming from.

@FFSMabel

i am not saying it is a lot but unlike many other companies who DO NOT get the stick (like Tesco, Hermes or your local pizza or Indian restaurant) they were paying the living wage

You think it's open to legal challenge? I think the DWP know it will be very very hard to challenge.

AI will arguably make more rational decisions than a human being. It will have millions of data points to compare and justify the decision unlike now. That is highly defensible on judicial review, never mind at an individual level for a claimant who wants payment.

Challenge the AI? You need an expert to see if it discriminates. You need to see the code and get it disclosed to do that.

All the while, the claimant gets no money.

No government will ever drop AI. It will shield them like nothing else.

I have to say, all I feel these days when I see the news is complete rage. the tent thing pushed me over the edge.... I just don't get how the tories are still in power

@MissLou0 YABVVVVVU didn't you know that being on benefits is a lifestyle choice?

while people like Michelle can't help but need millions because they have the debilitating condition known as being soulless twats. last I checked, that's incurable.... you should have more sympathy.

I think it’s unmanageable , my daughters dla isn’t spent on therapy or specifically disability related costs which are covered in ehcp. It’s instead spent on additional food costs to accommodate her restrictive earring , fuel bills , accommodation costs if we stay anywhere because she needs more space , Uber rather than public transport , additional costs on hygeine products because she can’t gauge how much of a product should be used etc.

i think this is open to significant legal challenge .

I think they should crack down for on tax avoidance AND benefit fraud. Why should I & other be paying for this to go.

Then they should target them not a blanket policy that will effect everyone 🙄

They are really going for it aren’t they . Trying to ruin everything and make people suffer while they still have the power ! Like a bad relationship where it’s ‘I don’t want you but I don’t want anyone else to have you’ they are just doing their equivalent of ‘it’s obvious you have seen through us so we will make you all suffer ‘

That’s awful so there will be families where for example a grandparent transfers xmas money for the dc and that will then stop benefits whilst it’s investigated which we all know takes ages to even get a response about anything from UC 🤦‍♀️ it’s going to end up causing people real problems

Exactly.

If you don't crack down on benefit fraud, more people will do it as well.

BTW @MissLou0 what's the source of your bar chart?

This is coming by the end of the year! I don't think it's a question of it not happening

Yes.