To think this “crackdown” on benefit fraud is absolutely pathetic

That's an excellent legal point. That's what the regulations say, and why so many PIP appeals win.

I think the point is that there are larger issues that could be addressed, but they're going for the one that will save a small amount of money compared to the far larger amounts that the government seem oddly reluctant to do anything about.

I saw somewhere they're hoping the bank checks will save £500 million over five years. So £100 million a year, which is a huge amount to the average person but loose change down the back of the sofa for government spending.

What a facile statement. This sort of crap is only spouted by people who have never been on the wrong end of outfits like DWP or have zero imagination or empathy

You've made countless posts on this thread along the same sinister lines. Please be responsible and post links to where you're getting this detailed, government 'fait accomplis' narrative from, because there are a lot of medically anxious MN users reading. You sound like you know what you're talking about, so please show your sources for this unsettling scenario.

Tax avoidance and benefit fraud are two different things. Waste of public finances in general is undesirable because those finances are finite. All these things require tackling and those of us who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear.

What is ?

The legislation is already being pushed through. Do you honestly think a Labour government is going to stop it ? They have a proven history of running with plans introduced by outgoing Tory governments.

YABU it is illegal and is a crime.

At the moment there is absolutely no restriction on what PIP or any of the other disability benefits is spent on. The assessment is based on the need for assistance and aids/adaptations. It ignores costs like incontinence and other major factors in disability as it’s too hard to assess for and PIP is a one size fits all system rather than tailored to the individuals’ needs. I agree - this would need to change to be a lot more specific if claimants are to be judged on what they spend that benefit money on. For example how do you prove that because of incontinence you spend more on bedding, clothing, washing powder, energy on increased laundry needs ? Or those whose condition means they have to have the heating on more than average ? You would need a system like direct payments via LA, where all spending has to be justified, otherwise the government will find itself mired in legal action.

Hopefully the Tories will be voted out and this batshit stuff will not come to pass.

The legislation is being put in place, and AI makes it easier to implement. It’s already being done now to a certain extent because the agreement between benefit claimants and DWP involves the acceptance that DWP will share and collect information about you between various agencies. This is just an extension of that.

I can only speak about Mexico's example. The current president, who took office in 2018, went after all the large companies that had been tax dodging for years. That money has been used to fund a newly created welfare system. I has made a huge difference

They can’t do anything unless they clarify certain things such as what is deemed acceptable or not.

ive had to give up working to care for my disabled daughter and I have to facilitate her education because they don’t have suitable schools to meet her needs.

I’d love to see them argue that I’m spending her disability money fraudulently because sometimes I buy wine along with the additional food and toiletry spend.

there is a lot of fearmongering on here . Unless they change the rules to precribe and define how DLA and PIP can be spent this will be subject to legal challenge if it happens whether the info is gathered by AI or not.

Exactly. The current PIP assessment doesn’t assess all the costs involved with disability. It uses the amount of help/aids and equipment needed to assess the level of disability present, and the likely costs involved. It’s over simplified and not the best way to do things, and deliberately omits major cost factors such as incontinence - which incurs massive cost, all ignored in the assessment. If they’re going to monitor and judge spending in line with PIP awards, then IMO it follows that they will have to rethink the eligibility criteria so the assessment is a realistic reflection of the individual disability and the likely costs the monitoring should pick up on.

Suggestions that people's accounts will be monitored are unlikely to come to pass. Banks would refuse to share this data with the government and if the government pressed them through regulation they would be more likely to de-bank customers than share this data.

The US Government tried something similar where benefits recipients would have to use pre-paid cards for all their benefit spending. Problem was every bank refused to operate the pre-paid cards for them.

The cost based thing with PIP is interesting because atm you need to show that you need help/adaptions/support, but you don’t necessarily need to be getting them.

if there’s going to be a monitoring of spending it’s going to be interesting to see how far they take that, and if there’s going to end up being ‘acceptable’ spending judgements made.

Remains to be seen doesn’t it ? I think they would have to accept it was a give if it could be proven as such, but it’s the stopping of benefit and the ensuing investigation that will be the problem, given the amount of time the claimant could potentially be without benefit.

I doubt you would have much recourse. If benefit was stopped by the AI algorithm you would have to appeal direct to DWP and co-operate with any investigation.

They won’t know which income source is used, I agree, but even contribution based benefits can be claimed fraudulently - a new style ESA claim would be fraudulent if the recipient was working as well, for example. And although a disability benefit like PIP is non means tested, tax free and is paid regardless of the ability to work, it’s a cost based benefit, so if the intention is to introduce technology to track what recipients spend their money on, it’s not hard to see that it could be used to reduce benefits for those deemed not to be spending their PIP or whatever, in line with those extra costs brought about by disability.

Well I probably look like a spring lamb and entirely suspicious on PIP, as my carers take my bank card to shop for me. The PIP assessor I had last time round was obviously interested in this, asked some questions, made notes and awarded me points on it.

What I'm interested in is if a disabled person, having had their benefit frozen by the government for no rational reason, would have any recourse? It's the freezing, not necessarily the 'quick look' that I object to. I might be able to survive without PIP for a year ... but how many would suffer real detriment? Most, I'd have thought. Where's the Equality Impact Assessment? The plans for rehousing people who are evicted?

Yes surely it will be viewed as more income in that assessment period and of that claimant is someone who cannot work they will assume it’s undeclared earnings and will they accept it was a gift

One of the new powers being considered is collecting information about where and how benefit claimants spend their money.

@Rosscameasdoody , when you when you say one of the powers they are considering is collecting information about where and how benefit claimants spend their money, this isn’t planned immediately at the end of the year is it like the monthly monitoring of bank accounts which they plan to bring in at the end of the year? Thank you.

@LNY1986 - you have it exactly right. The days of persuading one human being are over. The day about your spending used in evidence have come.

I was a lawyer once. This sort of evidence and its granularity would have been a dream because it would make it easy to defeat broad claims about why people did or did not do. That's why AI is here to stay.

This sort of scaremongering speculation is maybe not the most helpful to already anxious people.

Especially if based on Facebook posts.

DWP will be monitoring ALL bank accounts before long.
Anyone who claims any benefit, whether income related or not, will be subject to this intense scrutiny.

They already know exactly where and when, and more importantly, what was purchased.
They can already tell if you went thrugh a self service till, a main till, or if you went through a drive thru.
With this new legislation coming into play this year, your own bank account has now turned spy for them.

Every transaction has a unique code. If you spend £40 in Sainsburys, they can recover the receipt for that exact purchase years later if needs be.
They will know if you have purchased some immodiums, clean underwear and barrier creams. They will also know if you picked up some alcohol and chocolates.

If you claim PIP for severe anxiety, telling the DWP you hardly leave the house, then be prepared for your payments to be automatically stopped once the AI detects payments to restaurants, cafes, shops on a regular basis. Basically anything that flags up as not consistent with your reported condition.

If you claim for physical health problems, for example you tell them you cannot prepare a simple meal on most days, then be aware the AI will be able to tell how often you are buying ready meals/fast food/takeaway deliveries.
If you pop to Morrisons and buy a jar of sauce, some vegetables and a bag of rice, this will flag. Do this too often and you will be pulled in for further questioning.

Claiming you cannot use public transport? Don't use your card or Apple Pay on a bud then. Or the underground.

Claiming on the basis you need help managing your own finances?
Unless you are constantly dipping into the overdraft, direct debits being bounced etc, this will potentially flag you up.

Disability related costs can also be checked, they know exactly what you bought in the Co Op and in Boots. If this is extra washing powders and new underwear then fine. If not, be prepared for further scrutiny.

You cannot just say to them, oh yes that £20 in Tesco was for x/y/z.
They already know, and if they want to get a transaction receipt, the retailer is legally obliged to provide it.

Claiming for a condition that you say requires use of more water or energy? The AI will be able to cross referenxe with your utility bills. Any discrepencies and they may question your claim.

AI has no limits. Pictures can be built up very quickly and WILL be used against everybody in the future. And not for our benefit either.

There are so many other examples. I remember reading about someone on a Facebook advice page not that long ago, apparently she claimed DLA for her child, she was stitched up by a jealous relative. The DWP managed to get her bank statements without her knowing!! and asked why she was paying for disney+ and Roblox if the child struggles to concentrate for more than a few minutes at any one time! Were they for the child, can the child actually watch a disney movie then? Can they sit and play on Roblox without being distracted? Nothing more came of it, but the very fact that they saw fit to obtain bank statements and scrutinise the transactions to try and somehow disprove the claim is terrifying.
Be prepared to see a lot more of this in the future.

I predict major changes are coming in the welfare system. I think you will have to justify every penny and provide expenses BEFORE getting paid a disability allowance, a bit like the current shambles that is the UC childcare system. I think the set amount for different levels of care will be scrapped and instead you will have to justify every single penny.

Cash is and always will be king. But unfortunately we as a society have willingly adopted all this modern technology with no questions asked.
Everything the government brings in is for THEIR benefit, not of the people.

Anyone who claims benefits should be very worried with these proposed changes that will certainly be implemented in the very near future. Life is about to get much, much harder for the innocent disabled and all genuine claimants.
I think they will save a lot of money as genuine disabled people will just be too terrified to claim, or even pop to a restaurant on a good day if they feel up to it.