To think the Labour Party has lost its mind..

Here's the real problem: most people don't/won't join political parties.

In the case of Labour that means that the typical party activist is nothing like the typical Labour voter or swing voter.

So the grown-ups in the party will always have a perpetual fight with the student activists or their older versions and the militant factions that will never go away. Look at all the current Gaza protests - many of the placards are branded with Socialist Worker. Some years ago I did some research in to their correspondence addresses and which other organisations share the same address. Those people will always be looking to infiltrate Labour.

Anyone thinking of voting Labour, if you're too young to remember Neil Kinnock's battles with Militant then go and read about it. And recent history shows that elected Corbyn types are ever present in the wings of the party.

It's a pity the Tories can't present a more electable alternative.

The carnage unleashed on civilians in Gaza within just the first few weeks is less than the civilian death toll in Ukraine since it started.

It is also the case that our government spoke up for Ukraine is against Russia and has denounced what they are doing whereas we are clearly ‘winning’ for the genocide of innocents

I wouldn’t vote for Starmer, he is just another Tory. I have way more respect for the politicians standing up for humanity and try to get a ceasefire than just saying nothing cause they are protecting their jobs and positions, I know what side of history I want my mp to be on. We need a new proper socialist Labour Party and we need to get rid of these war crimes accomplices.

The opinions of individuals reported by the Daily Mail does not constitute international consensus of genocide. As you well know.

I’m not looking for ‘a large body’, I am looking for international consensus. Aka majority opinion which you stated exists.

You could try reading some mainstream news, as I did. Hell, even the Daily Mail has mentioned it.

And where has that got any of them? Nowhere. Because they are so concerned about Palestine it looks like they couldn't care less about any conflict that does not involve Jews. And that they couldnt care less about anything happening closer to home because they have an obsession with Palestine.The Far Left think that the ME would be form some kind of Socialist Utopia without Israel, when Islamists are basically Far Right Fascisits. Before Netenyahu, Israel, with it's Kibbutz systems was an early blueprint for communist living.

It is sad that this conflict has been hijacked by the far left.

Other than the far left nobody has given a fuck about Palestinians for 75 years.

I’m not looking for ‘a large body’, I am looking for international consensus. Aka majority opinion which you stated exists.

LMFAO! No, no they’re not. Please show me where there is international consensus that Israel is committing genocide.

There is a large body of top tier humanitarian and conflict lawyers, working for organisations like the Red Cross, WHO etc, who are the experts, who say that it does meet the criteria for genocide.

Disagree all you like, but it's a fact, even if you want ignore it and pretend it's not true. Israel is a brutal colonialist oppressor.

And yes, Hamas are brutal degenerates.

It's interesting that some people can see the faults of both sides, but others cannot, isn't it?

It is sad that this conflict has been hijacked by the far left. If anyone thinks that those protesting or getting involved in this from the Labour side are doing it because they have some new found interest in peace in the Middle East, you are naive. This is an attempt by Marxists to pick a side and use them as a shield to play politics. First BLM, now this.

LMFAO! No, no they’re not. Please show me where there is international consensus that Israel is committing genocide.

And there are plenty of eminently qualified people saying it isn’t. Those opinions don’t count I see.

Not really, because they're very much in the minority. Do you think that smoking doesn't cause cancer? If not, why not? Some experts say it doesn't.

And there are plenty of eminently qualified people saying it isn’t. Those opinions don’t count I see.

The Palestinian population has quadrupled since Israel was established. That alone doesn’t exactly suggest a genocidal policy. Nor does the integration of Arab-Israelis.

Civilian casualties are an unfortunate consequence of war. Legally, there is a difference between targeting civilians, and civilians being killed as a consequence of military action against the intended target. Intent is key here, not outcome. The actions of individual soldiers do not define the actions of the military at large, or the policy that guides them.

Israel may indeed have committed crimes here, incidentally, but that doesn’t mean they’ve committed genocide.

I wish it was 100. It's closer to 1000 for each member of Hamas they have apparently killed. The human price has been immense.

But in in wiping out Hamas - which I totally understand and agree with - they don't mind if they have to shoot and kill 100 women and children to get one Hamas man.

If you don't see that as a problem, there's something very wrong.

And as others have said, we know what Hamas are and expect them to be barbaric, they admit and even brag about it. Israel does one thing and says all the right stuff, so as not to frighten the horses and then acts in a barbaric way and blames its victims.

Israel likes to present itself as this nice, moral democracy, but acts like some medieval tyrant. They claim to have the world's most moral army, but its snipers shoot children in the head, troops hold boys down and break their arms, legs, then lock them away without trial, or representation.

As I said, actions speak louder than words.

As for the genocide aspect, you can disagree all you like, but the fact is, people who are eminently qualified to assess it as such have done so. It's not just me and other random bods online, we're repeating what has been reported on.

And plenty have stood up and said it’s not.

It’s laughable that anything said about Hamas, who are loudly and proudly genocidal, is met with ‘bUt IsRaEl’. As if genocide is only a problem if you believe the Israelis are committing it.

You can condemn the actions of Israel without mislabelling what they are doing as genocide. It isn’t. Genocide is explicitly a government policy to wipe out a national, racial or ethnic group. Statements made by extremist politicians are distinct from actual government policy.

Israel is acting to wipe out Hamas, not Palestinians. It’s Hamas that would rather Palestinians stay and die than allow them to move to safety.

notlucreziaborgia · Today 14:50

It isn’t genocide. Genocide has a specific meaning, and what the IDF is doing is not genocide.

Well, you can repeat Israeli propaganda all you like, but it doesn't make it true.

International humanitarian and conflict lawyers have stated that the actions of Israel in Gaza do constitute genocide. What's your expertise in the subject? What are your qualifications?

A genocide, as you should know, does not have to include an entire population.

They say that they are not targetting civilians, but the figures dispute that. 70% civilian casualties indicates a deliberate and methodical targetting of civilians, even if the Israelis claim otherwise and blame Hamas for 1 ton Israeli bunker busters being dropped on blocks of flats.

Why else would they target all the bakeries? And during the morning, when many women were queueing up for bread? Can you honestly examine your conscience and say that it was a mistake to target at least a dozen bakeries thusly?

As for the Israelis not saying that they will carry out genocide, that's common sense; but on the other hand, actions speak louder than words.

And Israel Government figures have advocated mass murder of Palestinians in the recent past. Avigdor Lieberman wanted Israeli Arabs murdered, if they wouldn't swear allegiance to Israel.

He offered to have them driven up to the Dead Sea and to tie rocks round the necks of the first ten thousand.

(No, I'm not trying to say that that is Israeli Government policy, much less that many Israeli Jews support such horror, either; just that there are hate-filled, homicidal maniacs on both sides).

So how many seats would that affect? And who are they going to vote for? Because if they just don't vote, it will make no difference anyway. And tbh, I would prefer to have a political party that doesn't bow down to demands from religious groups.

It’ll be interesting to see, if there is still a lot of anger by the time an election comes around and Labour still manages to win even if they lose a bunch of voters KS may decide he can afford to sideline pressure/special interest groups from within the party.

There isn't going to he an election tomorrow though. It will be in a years' time probably

Great news - suits me.

There isn't going to he an election tomorrow though. It will be in a years' time probably. The point is, as a PP said, by SKS calling o a ceasefire, not one Palestinian child will he saved. He will lose more votes if he caves to a few councillors for the sake of empty words, because many more people will see them for what they are. Pandering to some Hard Left agitators and loudmouths . Those councillors should be working to make their Muslim constituents lives better in the UK. Muslim communities that are some of the most deprived groups in the country, with some of the poorest educational and health outcomes, but they would rather risk another 5 years of the Tories? Really? What good would that do to the people they are supposed to represent?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-charts-that-show-keir-starmer-can-probably-afford-to-lose-muslim-voters-rfp8htp3c

It isn’t genocide. Genocide has a specific meaning, and what the IDF is doing is not genocide. A genocidal government would not integrate Palestinians into Israeli society and grant them citizenship. There is policy to destroy Hamas, not Palestinians as a group. While there may be extremists in Israel who want to achieve the latter, it is not government policy.

What is a genocidal organisation, however, is Hamas. It’s explicitly stated in the founding charter that their intention is to kill Jews (article 7: “The day of judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them”). Article 13 rejects any compromise or peace until Israel is destroyed.

Militarily, targeted bombing is certainly ‘better’ than door-to-door CQB and urban warfare. They are targeting Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas has no regard for Palestinians civilians, and is happy to use them as shields and let them die for the optics.

Certainfailure
Lol.

I doubt Labour HQ are laughing at the survey results in the Independent link:

How Muslims voted in 2019 election (%)
Labour 71%

How Muslim voters would choose if an election were tomorrow
Labour 4.9%