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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To leave my job/grievance with HR

108 replies

StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 10:32

For context, pre kids I had a similar situation with a manager within the same wider organisation.

I’ve triggered an absence trigger at work (4 times in 1 year) half of it unfortunately Covid. Front facing public role, career grade and professional standards in place.

my manager is a bully. I’ve managed to manage becoming a target but I think it’s taken me this long to develop some assertiveness skills which she hasn’t taken to well.

basically she has been negligent in some of the processes and logging of Absence and policy which I have objected to and we had a meeting with HR a few weeks ago.

The meeting was hard and they began by asking about my well being. I said I was well but wanted advice on mitigating covid within the organisation and what steps were in place to support staff with the public.

this was discussed and then I got to ask about some of the areas I objected to and received two apologies. I had to be massively assertive which I don’t find easy.

THe HR rep was very combatant and when id received my second apology and was wiped out being assertive I was asked again about my well being.

my response was …are we goi g to talk about that now? I thought we’d talked about that?

They both got very insistent saying that was the purpose of the meeting but I felt I’d already been asked and answered appropriately.

I wasn’t refusing to answer, I wasn’t rude, insulting, defiant and I did not break any code of conduct or professional standards only for the HR woman to basically say something like ‘you’re talking to your manager and I suggest you watch your tone’

Now this completely knocked the wind out of my sails for a second as that is not how I was acting (and I checked with a colleague in attendance who would have told me).

I think my manager struggles being challenged and this meeting was very much ‘get back in your box’ and that the HR lady had been waiting for an opportunity to give me this sort of warning at my managers behest.

AIBU to be outraged about the HR person? Tone policed for…I aren’t sure what, reflecting out loud?

we had a break afterwards and I am at the stage now where I don't think it will be good for me to continue working there.

How do I manage this going forward? I can ask to reduce my hours but it’s unlikely to be agreed as they can’t recruit.

Any insight to role of HR welcomed.

OP posts:
Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 20:44

RosesAndHellebores · 01/10/2023 20:27

OP, you have been quite defensive and argumentative on the thread.

Can you tell us how many days of absence you have had and how many instances of absence in the last 12 months please? Also what's your length of service and are you full-time?

4 days =4x1 day instances to clarify. I was obviously unwell for longer than that but this was the only impact upon my workplace.

OP posts:
User3456 · 01/10/2023 20:43

OP please don't leave unless you have a better offer to go to. Maybe you can get a transfer to a different team or get a job with a different local government organisation that will preserve your length of service. It's good your union rep was there. Keep notes on everything that you can remember and ask your rep to corroborate them.
Re: covid mitigations, here are some ideas that your employer could put in place:

  • monitoring Co2 in your workplace
  • providing HEPA filtration
  • providing FFP2 masks
  • providing free tests for staff and asking them not to come into work whilst positive, and encouraging staff with cold symptoms to wear a mask
  • you could ask your employer to sign the covid pledge The Covid-19 Safety Pledge (covidpledge.uk)
  • ask for admin time to be done from home if possible/practical with your job
  • whole team meetings/training to have hybrid/virtual options
And hear are some that you could do personally: Wishing you lots of luck

The Covid-19 Safety Pledge

Signing and displaying the Covid-19 Safety Pledge gives the public confidence that they can use your space safely.

https://covidpledge.uk/

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 20:39

Rainbowraisin · 01/10/2023 18:01

Are you in a union? If not join. Find out how long it will be before they are willing to support you. Having sat on the other side of the table a few times, I've found GMB reps to be really feisty, if I was joining a union now I'd definitely consider that one!

That’s interesting about GMB, good to hear good things.

I am in a union yes, definitely worth having that support 👍🏻

OP posts:
Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 20:37

RosesAndHellebores · 01/10/2023 20:27

OP, you have been quite defensive and argumentative on the thread.

Can you tell us how many days of absence you have had and how many instances of absence in the last 12 months please? Also what's your length of service and are you full-time?

It’s been quite the week for it 🤣

I’ll take that on the chin and agree though.

4 days, 4 instances, nearly 3 years.

OP posts:
Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 20:35

Jellycatspyjamas · 01/10/2023 20:26

It’s her job to act in your interests though, knowing it was going to be a tricky meeting. In the scale of what can happen at these meetings, being asked to watch your tone isn’t particularly extreme - I’d want my union rep to take in their stride in terms of their representation of me. I’d particularly want her to challenge anything that could go on a record of meeting about me.

Did your union rep not ask for clarity when the meeting resumed or check how that part of the meeting would be recorded or record her/your view that your tone was appropriate?

No I’m sure they can get far more heated. It’s more that it was unwarranted really.

I’ll be honest I think she could have done a better job of challenging it generally but I did hold my own.

We could have done a better job of clarifying when the meeting resumed of what she meant in terms of the tone. I don’t think it will be addressed formally.

At that juncture that it served no purpose other than to add fuel to their fire and I wanted to get out of there with my dignity intact and without tears which I managed.

We all took notes but not minutes, nothing was discussed as to how it would be recorded. My experience of this thus far is that the manager records only what is appropriate.

For instance there have been three review dates given. January, November then finally (once I quoted the policy) October. Butt none of the letters supersede the other or address the date change or make any apology for it changing or give any context to it in terms of policy. So they are just doi by what they think they can get away with.

OP posts:
RosesAndHellebores · 01/10/2023 20:27

OP, you have been quite defensive and argumentative on the thread.

Can you tell us how many days of absence you have had and how many instances of absence in the last 12 months please? Also what's your length of service and are you full-time?

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 20:27

supplycaptain · 01/10/2023 20:08

Also do you know the outcome of this meeting? There were errors in the process, so will the intended trigger point warning be given? Are they formally addressing your tone or was it informal? Are you back at work? Were any adjustments offered?

All excellent questions!

Two actions that I noted from HR and the review date end would be confirmed then.

Laughably my manager introduced this formal meeting with HR in attendance as being very ‘informal’ at the beginning of it. Honestly.

No adjustments offered, none that I could think to ask for either. I can obviously open the windows and ask service users to avoid coming in if they are ill. That’s it and hand gel, not much to be done.

The other illnesses were a nasty virus/flu and an episode of dizziness which I think is connected to a change in my eye prescription but don’t know.

I don’t know what you mean by ‘intended trigger point warning’ I was warned when I reached my third instance earlier in the year, that one mire instance would trigger absence monitoring, so was fully aware and obviously couldn’t do anything about getting Covid and wasn’t well enough to work.

My last trigger absence was in April.

For clarity, these were 4 instances of 1 day absences…I work 1 very long shift a week.

Because of various commitments on my managers part and one on mine, we didn’t meet for the 1st stage trigger meeting until July.

In answer to if they are formally addressing my tone, I think not. I think she overreacted but I will find out when the letter comes.

The errors in the process have been apologised for, that’s it. Not acknowledged in writing of course.

That’s all I get. Whether I’ve been notified of the process appropriately or not, the process is still happening and I am subject to it apparently.

OP posts:
Jellycatspyjamas · 01/10/2023 20:26

It’s her job to act in your interests though, knowing it was going to be a tricky meeting. In the scale of what can happen at these meetings, being asked to watch your tone isn’t particularly extreme - I’d want my union rep to take in their stride in terms of their representation of me. I’d particularly want her to challenge anything that could go on a record of meeting about me.

Did your union rep not ask for clarity when the meeting resumed or check how that part of the meeting would be recorded or record her/your view that your tone was appropriate?

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 20:13

Jellycatspyjamas · 01/10/2023 19:58

If my union rep felt I was unfairly challenged they would have addressed it during the meeting - that’s what they’re there for. I completely understand you were caught off guard, but did your union rep not respond given they felt the challenge was unwarranted?

I think she was shocked tbh.

The HR rep shrugged when we asked for a break (at my reps suggestion as she could see the HR person was out of order and escalating it in an unwarranted way)she got me out of there. She did ask if there was anything I wanted her to do but at that point I wanted the meeting to be over.

The HR person did not provide further clarity when the meeting resumed.

OP posts:
supplycaptain · 01/10/2023 20:08

Also do you know the outcome of this meeting? There were errors in the process, so will the intended trigger point warning be given? Are they formally addressing your tone or was it informal? Are you back at work? Were any adjustments offered?

supplycaptain · 01/10/2023 19:59

Sounds stressful

Not really sure what to advise. I think if I were in your situation and was asked about my wellbeing, I’d egg on how upsetting and stressful I found the whole thing cause they need to take that into account. I reckon if you’d said that, they wouldn’t dare police your “tone”.

they can 100% replace you if you leave, they won’t be stuck with no one to cover. If anything, they’ll just increase the salary of your role to entice an experienced replacement

its an interesting debate as to what is assertive vs rude. Being assertive can be rude, they’re not mutually exclusive. And yes, some men are rude when they’re assertive so it’s not exclusive to women. I tend to err on the side of overly friendly/diplomatic to the point I might sound like I have a baby voice. But no one ever polices my tone and I tend to get what I want in these situations

Jellycatspyjamas · 01/10/2023 19:58

If my union rep felt I was unfairly challenged they would have addressed it during the meeting - that’s what they’re there for. I completely understand you were caught off guard, but did your union rep not respond given they felt the challenge was unwarranted?

WelshNerd · 01/10/2023 19:50

If you want to leave, ask your union rep if you think there's any chance of negotiating a suitable move to another role (obviously away from you manager) or a compromise agreement.

Whether this is likely will depend a lot on local circumstances and what else is going on in the organisation.

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 19:47

RudsyFarmer · 01/10/2023 19:31

So you instead assumed the opposite.

Show quote history

I haven't assumed anything either way.

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 19:42

ChocolateCinderToffee · 01/10/2023 19:37

I do wonder if, having been caught out not adhering to management procedures, your manager wanted to put you in the wrong about something to regain the initiative and the HR person backed him or her up.

As others have said, HR are there to support management. They will always support managers rather than rank and file staff.

Yes this is what I think too. If I had left the meeting without the warning from HR which was clearly prepped for, I would have had a shred of hope that my dignity at work could remain intact, definitely not now.

Yes I’m under no illusion as to their role, that’s why I took my union rep with me as witness.

The only hope I may have is if senior management take exception to my leaving and question the circumstances as to why I am going…

OP posts:
ChocolateCinderToffee · 01/10/2023 19:37

I do wonder if, having been caught out not adhering to management procedures, your manager wanted to put you in the wrong about something to regain the initiative and the HR person backed him or her up.

As others have said, HR are there to support management. They will always support managers rather than rank and file staff.

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 19:36

For what it’s worth I’m not asking you to validate my perception on here. I think I’ve done a pretty good job of validating my position and the circumstances around it as best I can without a video link and transcript.

Of course I could be lying or misrepresenting the circumstances, it is an anonymous forum after all.

The inference being I am the unreliable staff member/lowly employee, who the manager has taken issue with, only rightly of course, and therefore deserving of HR threat to to watch my tone.

What constitutes being overly assertive in your opinion? What does that look like?

OP posts:
RudsyFarmer · 01/10/2023 19:31

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 19:29

No, I just always think it's a bad idea to just affirm someone's perception of events particularly when there are indicators it might not be accurate
In my experience very few people are capable of recognising when they are being overly assertive.

Show quote history

So you instead assumed the opposite.

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 19:29

RudsyFarmer · 01/10/2023 19:02

And you feel better qualified to comment about OP’s conduct than the poster themselves? Who was there.

Show quote history

No, I just always think it's a bad idea to just affirm someone's perception of events particularly when there are indicators it might not be accurate
In my experience very few people are capable of recognising when they are being overly assertive.

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 19:11

@RudsyFarmer 🙏🏻🙏🏻

It’s bad enough thinking you might be at fault on some level for bullying. Coming on a forum for some support and insight to be gas lit feels pretty special 🤣

Maybe I deserve it? Maybe it’s just me? Maybe I’m bad at being assertive? Maybe I just don’t get along with people? Maybe ima deeply flawed person who can’t recognise when she is in the wrong because she is in the wrong all the time.

None if that is true and you can bet your backside that the manager is NOT questioning her approach or assertiveness as it’s a given that managers can speak to staff how they want and the onus is on them to prove it ‘subjectively’ and go through the stress of a grievance.

Thanks for the support and feedback. I’ve no colleagues as such to dissect it with ❤️

OP posts:
RudsyFarmer · 01/10/2023 19:02

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 18:53

We don't know that, we only have the op's version of events

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And you feel better qualified to comment about OP’s conduct than the poster themselves? Who was there.

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 18:56

Here we go.

I’m been gas lit about my own version of experiences as a professional which I have asked for support on (to no benefit to anyone on here but MYSELF IRL) on an anonymous forum.

Gosh. Perhaps I should have videoed it for you with subs and we could all have a trial on my experiences word for word.

Jeez.

OP posts:
Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 18:54

@IAmNoLady HR did a good job of making sure I didn’t veer off topic as I did wander off initially, and managed the agenda (there wasn’t one). They left scope for me to discuss the things I took issue with (so they could see if it was a grievance incoming) and clearly wanted a discussion with me about my well-being.

Whilst I appreciate ‘tone’ can be subjective I should add I receive critical feedback regularly and this was already a really emotive situation as I had been absolutely shafted by my manager using a HR policy outcome punitively and without proper communication about next steps. Rightly, I was aggrieved at this.

I don’t expect to have my tone policed when I have a grievance, for having a grievance? iyswim.

Which is what it was. I agree that subjectively it can be hrs to prove (which I’m not out to do, Union rep confirmed it to me) but more than is that heir role?

Other posters have commented that professional and respectful discussion works at ALL levels within organisations and I believe this to be true which is why I take exception to this.

This as not a disciplinary hearing. This was not to discuss any professional shortcomings. This was in response to my answer when they asked about my well being.

Also, if I sound vague it’s because I was incredibly stressed and as a result cannot recall word for word what she said exactly. I’m not hiding it or disguising it for the benefit of support on an anonymous forum.

OP posts:
WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 18:53

RudsyFarmer · 01/10/2023 18:51

But the OP wasn’t aggressive. She was assertive. A male trait that is admired.

Show quote history

We don't know that, we only have the op's version of events

RudsyFarmer · 01/10/2023 18:51

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 18:44

I've sat in on quite a number of HR meetings and definitely seen men called out on their tone /being too aggressive

Show quote history

But the OP wasn’t aggressive. She was assertive. A male trait that is admired.

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