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AIBU?

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Original poster

To leave my job/grievance with HR

108 replies

StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 10:32

For context, pre kids I had a similar situation with a manager within the same wider organisation.

I’ve triggered an absence trigger at work (4 times in 1 year) half of it unfortunately Covid. Front facing public role, career grade and professional standards in place.

my manager is a bully. I’ve managed to manage becoming a target but I think it’s taken me this long to develop some assertiveness skills which she hasn’t taken to well.

basically she has been negligent in some of the processes and logging of Absence and policy which I have objected to and we had a meeting with HR a few weeks ago.

The meeting was hard and they began by asking about my well being. I said I was well but wanted advice on mitigating covid within the organisation and what steps were in place to support staff with the public.

this was discussed and then I got to ask about some of the areas I objected to and received two apologies. I had to be massively assertive which I don’t find easy.

THe HR rep was very combatant and when id received my second apology and was wiped out being assertive I was asked again about my well being.

my response was …are we goi g to talk about that now? I thought we’d talked about that?

They both got very insistent saying that was the purpose of the meeting but I felt I’d already been asked and answered appropriately.

I wasn’t refusing to answer, I wasn’t rude, insulting, defiant and I did not break any code of conduct or professional standards only for the HR woman to basically say something like ‘you’re talking to your manager and I suggest you watch your tone’

Now this completely knocked the wind out of my sails for a second as that is not how I was acting (and I checked with a colleague in attendance who would have told me).

I think my manager struggles being challenged and this meeting was very much ‘get back in your box’ and that the HR lady had been waiting for an opportunity to give me this sort of warning at my managers behest.

AIBU to be outraged about the HR person? Tone policed for…I aren’t sure what, reflecting out loud?

we had a break afterwards and I am at the stage now where I don't think it will be good for me to continue working there.

How do I manage this going forward? I can ask to reduce my hours but it’s unlikely to be agreed as they can’t recruit.

Any insight to role of HR welcomed.

OP posts:
budlea64 · 01/10/2023 22:04

I'm a Unite the Union Workplace Rep in the NHS.
No way would I have let the HR person get away with talking to my member like that. I would have pulled it up as inappropriate immediately.
I'm currently in a situation where I'm tackling my own bullying manager, behaviour she has got away with for a very long time until I went to that workplace. She shuts down any dialogue, has favourites and picks on those that don't suck up to her.
Now she does feel very threatened having a Rep watching her and is trying to get me out.
Long story but I have raised a formal grievance as she lied in front of HR about my situation and I now have proof, plus I have raised a claim for an ET.
However, it's much more stressful than representing one of my members.
I would raise a formal grievance about the behaviours in the previous meeting and request that the determining manager is from another area and not a member of HR, as they will stick together.
Also the advice about calling ACAS is good advice in any employment situation, they are very knowledgeable.
Keep standing up for yourself. My guide on this is that if it's factual, not personal or insulting and it's said in a calm manner, it's ok. The problem is some people prefer yes men/women and I'm not one of them and I don't think you are either.
You know you're right, they're wrong, stick to your guns.
Oh and I do find the offering staff support thing is often used to try to make staff feel inferior in my experience nowadays, we all know where to find staff support services if we need it. I once raised something a few years ago and the reply from the director looking into it was that they were worried about me. That just made me rather cross as they were deflecting from the issue. It's all tactical from these people.
I just want to say, well done though, I know it takes its toll and is hard to do and don't let them get to you.

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 22:01

RosesAndHellebores · 01/10/2023 21:50

All a grievance wver does, in 95% of cases, is to destroy already fractured relationships. The outcome will likely be mediation. Therefore in your shoes I'd suggest mediation now.

Is this about your anxiety in light of covid rather than your absences? Covid is here to stay op. There are few statutory interventions left. The screens are down, the masks have gone, life is back to normal and the wheels are turning. We all need to manage it together and kicking up a fuss at work isn't going to change it.

There's as much chance of catching covid through a chance encounter as at work. On the bus man taking your money at the petrol station, in the supermarket, bumping into a friend at the library, etc.

I hope you've had a flu jab.

Having said that I think it's a shame this year's boosters are only available for the over 65s. DH and I are lucky because our mother's are very elderly and we fall under the carer category.

IWe work with vulnerable people who aren’t always very self aware about hygiene which gives me the extra ick.

I got it from a family member going abroad.

From a work POV, I need to feel empowered as to what the party line is for Covid and they haven’t really said and I know it’s because we are all living with it now.

I’m not kicking up a fuss about Covid. It My union rep had it as a focus and it just wasn’t needed for the meeting really.

I just mentioned it as I wanted some guidance and understandably feel twitchy about being ill again as this has been very stressful as I’ve never been subject to formal sanctions EVER so then for it to be mismanaged, it’s been hard going for me.

I just want managerial support if I object to service users attending who are very clearly unwell and being able to turf them gently out without fear of repercussions or attendance being an issue from management 🙂

You are right about a grievance and the outcomes from that and I know there is no good to come from that. I could go down the mediation route but feel it’s too late for this now and hence why I am considering leaving.

I need to ask about the jab!

OP posts:
Playingintheshadow · 01/10/2023 22:00

healthadvice123 · 01/10/2023 21:48

one thing I have learned about HR is in most instances they are there to protect the company and not the employees.

Well you've learned wrong...

HR are there to protect the organisation. They do that by protecting the rights of the employee.

Playingintheshadow · 01/10/2023 21:58

ChocolateCinderToffee · 01/10/2023 19:37

I do wonder if, having been caught out not adhering to management procedures, your manager wanted to put you in the wrong about something to regain the initiative and the HR person backed him or her up.

As others have said, HR are there to support management. They will always support managers rather than rank and file staff.

Not if HR is being done well.

Waffle · 01/10/2023 21:57

I proper hate when people say HR protect the company not the staff... to protect the company they have to protect the staff. Ensuring policies are followed fairly or they end up in a tribunal...

Also I feel I should be on commission for a union... your rep technically can push for you to be moved area under certain circumstances. But working one long shift a week would probably make this really hard.

I dont envy you OP, cause it sounds like you have a crap union rep, a nasty manager and at best an on the fence HR.. this may sound ridiculous... could you go off long term sick while you look for a new job? Long term tends to be looked on with less hassle than lots of short time off.

desikated · 01/10/2023 21:53

StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 21:27

Thank you, I know🙏🏻

It’s good to get other peoples views and advice but sometimes I have forum regret 🤣

Show quote history

forum regret syndrome (FRS)😂😂

RosesAndHellebores · 01/10/2023 21:50

All a grievance wver does, in 95% of cases, is to destroy already fractured relationships. The outcome will likely be mediation. Therefore in your shoes I'd suggest mediation now.

Is this about your anxiety in light of covid rather than your absences? Covid is here to stay op. There are few statutory interventions left. The screens are down, the masks have gone, life is back to normal and the wheels are turning. We all need to manage it together and kicking up a fuss at work isn't going to change it.

There's as much chance of catching covid through a chance encounter as at work. On the bus man taking your money at the petrol station, in the supermarket, bumping into a friend at the library, etc.

I hope you've had a flu jab.

Having said that I think it's a shame this year's boosters are only available for the over 65s. DH and I are lucky because our mother's are very elderly and we fall under the carer category.

healthadvice123 · 01/10/2023 21:48

one thing I have learned about HR is in most instances they are there to protect the company and not the employees.

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 21:45

RosesAndHellebores · 01/10/2023 20:27

OP, you have been quite defensive and argumentative on the thread.

Can you tell us how many days of absence you have had and how many instances of absence in the last 12 months please? Also what's your length of service and are you full-time?

@RosesAndHellebores no not full time.

Annualised hours and one long day.

OP posts:
Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 21:42

WelshNerd · 01/10/2023 19:50

If you want to leave, ask your union rep if you think there's any chance of negotiating a suitable move to another role (obviously away from you manager) or a compromise agreement.

Whether this is likely will depend a lot on local circumstances and what else is going on in the organisation.

This won’t happen and would beyond the scope of the union rep. I can start looking and applying.

OP posts:
Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 21:40

supplycaptain · 01/10/2023 19:59

Sounds stressful

Not really sure what to advise. I think if I were in your situation and was asked about my wellbeing, I’d egg on how upsetting and stressful I found the whole thing cause they need to take that into account. I reckon if you’d said that, they wouldn’t dare police your “tone”.

they can 100% replace you if you leave, they won’t be stuck with no one to cover. If anything, they’ll just increase the salary of your role to entice an experienced replacement

its an interesting debate as to what is assertive vs rude. Being assertive can be rude, they’re not mutually exclusive. And yes, some men are rude when they’re assertive so it’s not exclusive to women. I tend to err on the side of overly friendly/diplomatic to the point I might sound like I have a baby voice. But no one ever polices my tone and I tend to get what I want in these situations

They’ve been trying to recruit all year. Hasn’t happened, what they will do though is make other people cover it, which will cause organisational angst due to role distinctions.

We’ve been through two replacements who have left and one who won’t work for her anymore. It’s going to be interesting!

I might try retain some hours and length of service, we’ll see.

OP posts:
Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 21:31

Waffle · 01/10/2023 21:24

I totally appreciate that, and that's why your rep should be on your side. It shouldn't all be on you. Its about you but they are there to support you. Lean on them.

Show quote history

She was, I think Covid is obviously a bit of a topic for Unions at the moment and rightfully so. I would have appreciated some more detail on the policy aspect and what the repercussions are for me as a result of policy not being followed.

I’ll have to see what the letter says this week and then get a plan I think for the next meeting.

I’ve spoken to ACAS and they confirmed my thoughts on what had transpired and basically said grievance route.

OP posts:
Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 21:27

Fightyouforthatpie · 01/10/2023 20:58

It's not you, OP it's them.
As for all the wonks on here banging on about "unprofessional" tone - that's highly subjective so like you, I wouldn't take kindly to being lectured about it as it really isn't easy to judge or obvious.

Thank you, I know🙏🏻

It’s good to get other peoples views and advice but sometimes I have forum regret 🤣

OP posts:
Waffle · 01/10/2023 21:24

StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 21:18

This is the third meeting I have had regarding my absences since April. So when I am talking about how hard I find it, it’s been hard for me every time.

It’s really hard when someone is in charge, your superior and you are calling them out on it, they do not appreciate it or thank you for it. I’m the ah for daring to raise it.

In terms of 360 feedback this thread is really proving interesting.

I am not ashamed of being defensive when I have something to defend.

Show quote history

I totally appreciate that, and that's why your rep should be on your side. It shouldn't all be on you. Its about you but they are there to support you. Lean on them.

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 21:23

desikated · 01/10/2023 21:14

slightly off topic, but I really don't think the OP has been defensive or argumentative. Especially given c.50% of people on this thread seem to think they are in the wrong, and so, understandably, that might be a bit annoying.

Back on topic OP - you work 1 day a week? and that day is really really long?
I get why absence policies are there. I get some people need more support and that is a good way of identifying them. I also get that someone being constantly off sick is difficult for the employer etc etc.

But also, it makes me rage a bit. You had covid twice, a virus and another illness. What did they want you to do at the first trigger point? Just come in and vomit up all over the place when you were ill? Stay totally socially isolated, and away from your children so you didn't get ill? utter madness.

Also, none of these illnesses requires specific wellbeing / health support, as in they are all discrete illnesses. (I have a chronic health problem - so in this instance yup i can see why my employer might want to know what they can do).

Going forward it might be better for me to go in and go home from work on that basis.

Yes 1 long day. I cant say too much as it will be outing.

Yes all discrete instances so nothing interlinking that can be reviewed or discussed further at these review meetings, assuming I don’t hit more triggers.

No deadlines have been given to work to, unless the review meeting is one itself as a mid point, but think that would roughly be when one of my absences sheds which will be November.

OP posts:
Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 21:18

Waffle · 01/10/2023 21:09

Re reading again I really do think your anger is misplaced. You talk about how hard it was for you to be assertive. Again, that's the union reps job. Speak to them beforehand, when they can see you flagging they should jump in and take over. It would get the point across and act as a barrier between you and your manager.

You come across very defensively on here.. Perhaps you did the same in the meeting. But these meetings are emotional and hard, particularly if the manager is a pain, so people often get angry and upset.

I'm a firm believer in unions. Make sure you get your moneys worth from a decent rep who will support you.

This is the third meeting I have had regarding my absences since April. So when I am talking about how hard I find it, it’s been hard for me every time.

It’s really hard when someone is in charge, your superior and you are calling them out on it, they do not appreciate it or thank you for it. I’m the ah for daring to raise it.

In terms of 360 feedback this thread is really proving interesting.

I am not ashamed of being defensive when I have something to defend.

OP posts:
desikated · 01/10/2023 21:14

slightly off topic, but I really don't think the OP has been defensive or argumentative. Especially given c.50% of people on this thread seem to think they are in the wrong, and so, understandably, that might be a bit annoying.

Back on topic OP - you work 1 day a week? and that day is really really long?
I get why absence policies are there. I get some people need more support and that is a good way of identifying them. I also get that someone being constantly off sick is difficult for the employer etc etc.

But also, it makes me rage a bit. You had covid twice, a virus and another illness. What did they want you to do at the first trigger point? Just come in and vomit up all over the place when you were ill? Stay totally socially isolated, and away from your children so you didn't get ill? utter madness.

Also, none of these illnesses requires specific wellbeing / health support, as in they are all discrete illnesses. (I have a chronic health problem - so in this instance yup i can see why my employer might want to know what they can do).

User3456 · 01/10/2023 21:09

It does sound toxic :-( But also I think employers need to do much better to protect staff from repeated covid infections, It's not right to put pressure on staff because they are getting infected during a pandemic. I am worried about this also. I hope things work out ok for you.

Waffle · 01/10/2023 21:09

Re reading again I really do think your anger is misplaced. You talk about how hard it was for you to be assertive. Again, that's the union reps job. Speak to them beforehand, when they can see you flagging they should jump in and take over. It would get the point across and act as a barrier between you and your manager.

You come across very defensively on here.. Perhaps you did the same in the meeting. But these meetings are emotional and hard, particularly if the manager is a pain, so people often get angry and upset.

I'm a firm believer in unions. Make sure you get your moneys worth from a decent rep who will support you.

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 21:07

RosesAndHellebores · 01/10/2023 20:52

4 absences of 1 day is the first trigger point if the Bradford Factor is being used. 4 x 4 squared is 64 Sounds like a storm in a tea cup. Reduce your absences and your Bradford Factor score will reduce. You ought to be set a target to reduce your score. Once one of the absences falls away it will be 3 x 3 squared: 27, then 2 x 2 squared: 16.

Paradoxically the Bradford Factor weights frequent, short term absences more highly than say and operation resulting in four weeks off. It's the short term absences that often prove hard to cover. It's a bugger for anyone with endometriosis for example. In which case HR should step in and seek advice from OH.

Get HR on your side, act a bit vulnerable and stop picking at policy.

Covid isn't going anywhere but one episode of covid, if you arenoff for five days won't ratchet up your Bradford Factor.

I wouldn’t be letting a member of my team waste their time by meeting with you and your manager over this. Chat with manager, "you've hit a trigger" "what can we do to support you to bring it down?". Follow up in writing with a reasonable period for improvement.

There's something else going on here.

Yes the Bradford factor is being used I believe.

I think my first absence will fall away in November. If it had been 3 weeks later it wouldn’t have triggered at all.

It is a storm in a tea-cup because I’m having formal meetings with outcomes agreed…then being given formal outcomes (review meetings) that I have not agreed to or had discussed with me at the appropriate juncture (trigger meeting) as per the policy.

Add into the mix a manager that doesn’t like being challenged and isn’t strong on HR policies and procedures, it’s a total mess.

I don’t wish to be defensive but please don’t insinuate there is something else at play here with regards to my absence. There really isn’t in terms of what I’ve stated to here on my part. I’ve had 3 viruses (2 Covid 1 flu) and dizziness in a year. Just unfortunate.

I believe I am being subjected to this extended review management in the first instance because they are worried there might be a grievance. Secondly, because my manager wants me back in my box, and lastly, because they can. It’s included in the policy as a potential outcome so they are making me sweat for it.

OP posts:
Fightyouforthatpie · 01/10/2023 20:58

It's not you, OP it's them.
As for all the wonks on here banging on about "unprofessional" tone - that's highly subjective so like you, I wouldn't take kindly to being lectured about it as it really isn't easy to judge or obvious.

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 20:57

Waffle · 01/10/2023 20:47

If your union rep didn't call HR out on the statement you have taken offence at then you need a new rep. Reps are there to stick up for you and ensure the policy is fair and applied properly. They shouldn't be shocked by any comment and should happily call stuff like this out.

Also.. I would say the majority of HR would not blindly accept what a manager tells them but would go on the facts as they find them.

Yes, it was weak in that side of things definitely. She was focussed on the Covid…I was focussed on the policy and lack of transparency.

HR lady was silent when I discussed the policy issues, nothing, so I know they were in the wrong. I got an apology, that’s all.

She wasn’t there to offer any objective view on the facts of what my manager had or hadn’t done policy wise.

Behind closed doors I am sure she will have objectively told her what she should and shouldn’t have done…but I will not get that acknowledgement. It was a sickness absence review not an investigation into policy or managerial negligence.

OP posts:
RosesAndHellebores · 01/10/2023 20:52

4 absences of 1 day is the first trigger point if the Bradford Factor is being used. 4 x 4 squared is 64 Sounds like a storm in a tea cup. Reduce your absences and your Bradford Factor score will reduce. You ought to be set a target to reduce your score. Once one of the absences falls away it will be 3 x 3 squared: 27, then 2 x 2 squared: 16.

Paradoxically the Bradford Factor weights frequent, short term absences more highly than say and operation resulting in four weeks off. It's the short term absences that often prove hard to cover. It's a bugger for anyone with endometriosis for example. In which case HR should step in and seek advice from OH.

Get HR on your side, act a bit vulnerable and stop picking at policy.

Covid isn't going anywhere but one episode of covid, if you arenoff for five days won't ratchet up your Bradford Factor.

I wouldn’t be letting a member of my team waste their time by meeting with you and your manager over this. Chat with manager, "you've hit a trigger" "what can we do to support you to bring it down?". Follow up in writing with a reasonable period for improvement.

There's something else going on here.

Original poster
StrongTea22 · 01/10/2023 20:51

User3456 · 01/10/2023 20:43

OP please don't leave unless you have a better offer to go to. Maybe you can get a transfer to a different team or get a job with a different local government organisation that will preserve your length of service. It's good your union rep was there. Keep notes on everything that you can remember and ask your rep to corroborate them.
Re: covid mitigations, here are some ideas that your employer could put in place:

  • monitoring Co2 in your workplace
  • providing HEPA filtration
  • providing FFP2 masks
  • providing free tests for staff and asking them not to come into work whilst positive, and encouraging staff with cold symptoms to wear a mask
  • you could ask your employer to sign the covid pledge The Covid-19 Safety Pledge (covidpledge.uk)
  • ask for admin time to be done from home if possible/practical with your job
  • whole team meetings/training to have hybrid/virtual options
And hear are some that you could do personally: Wishing you lots of luck

Thank so much for this. My rep did have some of these (pages of notes about UKHSA guidance) and the HR just dismissed it…said she’d check WHO I think.

I do obviously have some anxiety about being off and ill again especially as some of the policies and procedure have been mishandled and I have been powerless to really have my objections listened to with any effect or acknowledged until now.

It’s just a toxic work place.

If I seem argumentative and defensive it’s because I’ve had to argue with my boss to be have my legitimate concerns taken seriously IRL and defensive because they weren’t dealt with seriously or effectively.

OP posts:
Waffle · 01/10/2023 20:47

If your union rep didn't call HR out on the statement you have taken offence at then you need a new rep. Reps are there to stick up for you and ensure the policy is fair and applied properly. They shouldn't be shocked by any comment and should happily call stuff like this out.

Also.. I would say the majority of HR would not blindly accept what a manager tells them but would go on the facts as they find them.

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