To not sign friends petition about school fees ?

To be fair. If they are a business, what non massive business offers reduced rate access to their goods to the extent that some (I know not all, but ours does to a considerable extent) offer to those that cannot pay the full amount. So there is a charitable element. Whether you think it is enough is another matter. And whether, if they are no longer classed as charities current parents will be happy with their fees not only paying their own child’s costs, plus the proportion needed for longer term profits plus subsiding another child who does not pay full fees, is also another matter.

as I said, it was asked the other way round in my case. I could have frothed that that parent put their own (far greater levels of surplus) money in and not ask me, who was not using that service. But life’s too short and I just said i couldn’t afford to help. In much the same way as my charitable giving generally will have to stop if fees have vat imposed.

there will be consequences from whatever policies are brought in. Most parents have a finite amount of money and will have to repurpose it if they are fortunate enough to have enough to pay the fees in the first place. So the small business they would have used to buy local stuff from, the cleaner, the music teacher etc may all feel the effects by having lower demand. Every policy has its ripples and I guess those who feel the ripples are more likely to be concerned than those who feel they are not affected by it.

Didn’t actually know until I read this post that they have charity status, that’s ludicrous

It’s so glaringly obvious that private schools aren’t charities, on what planet would they be considered a charity?! LOL. You’ve objected and she’s asked why, have the courage of your convictions and state why you support the decision. I wouldn’t go into your opinion of private schools, that’s irrelevant. This isn’t a private vs public argument, it’s simply the removal of an unsuitable status granted wrongly in the first instance

You already told her why. Just repeat that and don't get into a further discussion. Also, she's the one causing an issue by handing out the petition to state schooling friends, silly person.

And you are right, of course.

Yes why not tell them? If they are not willing to accept an alternative point of view they are not worth having as a friend.

As a private school educated person, with 5 children planning to attend private- I think they should be legally classed as businesses. I'd rather pay higher fees and support the school in finding funding for children whose families can't afford the fees.

Many parents cannot afford the fees as it is, and their child still attends. Loans, debt and working 2 jobs isn't always worth it.

But it's tricky to navigate when there's petitions being handed around playgrounds and play dates.

The reply you gave her when she asked you to sign it explained everything. Just copy and paste the same reply again and again if she keeps asking. Hopefully she will get the message and clear off!

Converting struggling independent schools into academies and absorbing them ‘lock stock’ into the state system has been done before and is a pragmatic answer for those independent schools who face very significant pupil loss as a result of the vat change. Least disruptive for staff and pupils.

My children and GCs have left school, so no skin in the game. But, if a load of kids have to leave private school, and attend state ones, won't that make classes even more overloaded? 🤔

Luckily, 'educational services' (schools) are available for free!

She could counter with "taxing educational services is unethical."

Building work, for example.

https://yorkshiretimes.co.uk/article/Private-Schools-VAT-And-Tax--Time-For-Class

“Moreover, if independent schools had to charge VAT on fees then they may become eligible to reclaim any VAT that the school incurred on recent large ‘capital’ (building or refurbishment) projects. Those independent schools that have built new swimming pools, sports halls, music rooms, drama studios, laboratories or lecture halls over the last decade could be in line for an unexpected tax windfall, which could make for some politically awkward headlines.”
https://capx.co/would-charging-vat-on-private-school-fees-really-raise-1-6bn/

...so I'd just repeat what you told her already

If you tell someone your opinion when asked, stating the reason (as you did) and they come back with why, they know why-they just want an argument and they don't accept your opinion.

Who is she petitioning? It won't matter how many signatures she has if labour win the General Election.

What things do schools buy that have VAT put on them?

The biggest cost is staff salaries - no VAT

Books and textbooks - no VAT

Electricity - already 20%; fee paying schools can't claim the reduced charitable rate

Food for school lunches - if they're being cooked from scratch, there's no VAT on most of the ingredients

They would be charging far more in VAT on fees than they're ever able to reclaim, seeing as by far their biggest expenditure is on staff salaries.

The schools would then be able to reclaim the VAT costs incurred in running the school (and this could very likely be something they could backdate), which is not an insignificant amount. They could also charge higher fees for the hiring out their facilities to local state schools.

Nailed it

I think I would go with, "It's just not something I care about, and it only affects a minority of the population". That might be a deflection that doesn't spoil the friendship.

Honestly, it wouldn't make much difference to our local state schools if the local private schools were forced to close. They don't have huge numbers of pupils anyway and the numbers would be dispersed across a significant number of local schools rather than all piling into just one or two. A few extra middle class kids with supportive parents really aren't going to break the state sector.

But I don't think many schools will close anyway. Most will find ways of cutting costs, and a lot of parents will find ways of paying the extra. A few might be forced into state, but I'm really not worried about the impact of that on state schools, it will be negligible.

Apologies for quoting rather than replying - for some reason the reply button doesn’t work for me.

The thing is that although 7% of children nationally are privately educated, that isn’t spread evenly across the country. In some areas it could be 0.5% and some it could be 25%. I live in an area where the proportion is really high, particularly at secondary level, and the state schools are overflowing, particularly at secondary level - the local authority relies on a certain percentage of kids being privately educated. In fact, the headteacher at my son’s state primary school advises families who can afford it (which does not include us) to go for private because the chances of getting into a local state secondary are already so low.

So it’s good that you don’t think that it’ll make much difference to your local schools, but there are areas where it could be really problematic.

I’m not so worried about private schools closing, but I do think there are areas in which even a relatively small influx of kids into state schools will be a disaster - and I also think that interest rates will start to bite over the next few years, so families who would previously have found the extra cash down the back of the sofa won’t necessarily be able to.

I don’t disagree conceptually with posters who say that private schools are businesses. But I think it’s worth asking why you support this change and what you think it will achieve.

It reminds me a bit of the Brexit debates - I was very strongly in favour of Remain and I used to have endless conversations with my dad (who voted Leave) where he would list all the things he didn’t like from an ideological point of view about the EU. But I would say to him that no one is saying the EU is perfect and beyond reproach, and also you don’t need to love it from an ideological point of view - you just need to understand that whatever its faults, life outside the EU will be much worse. He didn’t/wouldn’t understand that - and it is.

Couldn't have put it better myself 👏👏👏

Unfortunately, Tory voters like to think all the wrong in their and other people's lives is the fault of labour or 'those lazy benefit scroungers who just don't work hard enough' and it's not likely to change soon, sadly.

They can demand that all they like it won't happen, same as people won't get a reduction for using private health care.

Not paying VAT is a tax break which is being removed and our taxation system isn't pay per use and that's just the way it is.

In fairness, this change has been under discussion for several years, so I imagine that the majority of private school parents will have already budgeted for it. Those that haven't planned for it are either those who don't think that moving their kids to state would be a massive problem or they're overstretching themselves by committing to school fees that they can't realistically afford for the duration. Regardless, it shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.