To not sign friends petition about school fees ?

What would raise £1.6bil?

Because unless I've misplaced a decimal point, that works out at under £90 per pupil per term across the current private school population, and I think that would be easily absorbed into normal fee increases. It's less than has been previously calculated (I'd thought it was about £200)

The 100k state places likely to be surplus are concentrated in primary schools, where the private school proportion is much lower than the headline 5-7% (varies by source) - the efflux of pupils could occur and any age, and the first stressor will be year 7 (where parents decide not to start private after all), and of course the places where there are surplus state places may well not be in the towns and cities where new ones are needed.

£7460 per pupil for a state secondary place (might vary between home nations), v £270 per pupil per year of those who stay in situ. So for every pupil who joins the state sector, you need 27 to remain private just to break even (assuming you can accommodate them in existing vacancies). So anything more than 4% leaving the private system increases the cost to the tax payer more than the revenue expected to be generated.

If any new places have to be built in eg cities, where more than the national average number of pupils attend private schools and spare capacity is considerably narrower than the nationwide picture, then this policy may be at best a break-even one, ans quite possibly one that requires increases to the schools budget beyond projected additional tax gain

It’s just another blow against family autonomy.

State schools are immoral. The State should not be dictating where you child goes, what he learns or how he is taught.

Competition between independent providers would improve standards.

But it’s more fundamental than standards. Government schools are an abuse.

It would raise £1.6bn a year for state schools.

The institute for fiscal studies estimate around 3-7% reduction in private school attendance as a result.

There is an upcoming 100k spaces of overcapacity in state schools so accommodating these extra pupils would be fine.

The cost of educating the additional pupils would be ~ £100-300 million a year.

This leaves a net benefit of £1.3billion for state schools.

Strikes me as a great idea.

My children were and are in need - they receive bursaries. We are working class. My children are nothing special academically however after investigation it was private schooling which came forward to support me and my children through difficult times.
Not all private schools are elitist.

The damage private schools cause to the wider population out way any relieving particularly when you consider how small the numbers are.

So you’d like to do away with private schools as you don’t believe in them, so let’s say that happened, where do all these kids go. Parents paying for private schools still pay taxes that go towards your kids education, they probably have private medical and dentistry as well , all relieving the state system.

Only 7 percent of kids go to private school. Average class size is 26 that's about an extra 1.8 kids per class. Where is this 5 from?

But not all would drop out. Some who couldn’t afford it, the same as everybody else who can’t afford it. Many private schools are actually quite small. Scaremongering that schools
will be over run when actually only 4% of children are even in private schools anyway is ridiculous.

Luckily, there was a huge baby boom in 2009-11, followed by a dramatic drop in the birth rate.

State schools receive funding per pupil, and are all facing horrendous financial cliffs as the number of pupils shrinks year by year.

This would be very helpful indeed.

That's good for you. We have one state school 11-16 and one private school 11-18. State sixth form provision is already out of town, a minimum of 1 hour 5 minutes on public transport and usually more. In the rush hour it takes my DC over 1 hr 45 minutes each way to reach college. The local state school would be unlikely to simply absorb another school. Not everyone lives in a city and the logistics in other parts of the country are not as straight forward as you suggest.

Exactly this. Not everyone is extremely wealthy, some people sacrifice to send their children to private schools so suddenly you may have loads more children fighting for underfunded schools which will have no teachers left because they are stressed out, overworked and underpaid.

However if the school is a charity, it can't just stop being one. he charity has to be wound up in accordance with the Charity Commission standards. This is a very important safeguard - charitably owned assets cannot just be converted into private property (owned by a business or an individual)

So if Labour proposes a mechanism which allows schools to change status without having to follow the normal procedures for charities, then I think many would leap at it. That mechanism would of course have to avoid disruption to all other charities which have the Provision of Education as one of their legally defined aims.

And it would yield a few hundred per pupil per term (based on different handling of things such as VAT), which is likely to be easily absorbed.

VAT on fees (which is nothing to do with UK charitable status, but legacy of EU VAT rules which prevents taxation on fees for nurseries/pre-schools, schools and universities) would of course yield much more, depending on what rate they chose to set it at and would affect all institutions, not just the schools who are charities.

Now she wants to know WHY exactly

Turn it around. Tell her that you want to know why private schools should be registered charities in the first place.

There's nothing stopping a private school from operating a separate charitable fund specifically to provide bursaries and scholarships, but the school itself doesn't need to be a charity at all.

I actually disagree and think anything with educational benefit should be a charity and VAT exempt from private schools to nurseries and extra curricular sports training.

My eldest son went to a private school and I am DEFINITELY not wealthy. His school had charity status. 87% of pupils were on some sort of bursary so it's not fair to say all parents who send their children to private school are wealthy. It's simply not true.

It has nothing to do with charitable status. It is because there is no VAT on education (tax still not allowed on education in the EU) This covers schools, universities, after school clubs, music lessons, tutors etc. Loads of private schools don’t have charitable status anyway.

I didn’t use to be against private schools, I was educated at one myself, but my experience with them for my own children has changed my view completely. I initially thought that it was sour grapes on my part, none of the 3 local schools we applied to offered him a place. He is a bright kid but has AuDHD and so needs a bit of extra support. We thought the smaller scale of the private schools and smaller class sizes would suit him as they would be less overwhelming and staff would have more time for him - he doesn’t need and has never had 1-2-1.
So to be turned down by these schools, with them quoting stupid things such as “we think he’d struggle with having to move classrooms and with our busy campus) when the alternative is an 8-form entry mainstream state school that is several times bigger, just showed me that these are profit-driven business who absolutely don’t deserve charitable status.
My son is only 3.5 weeks into his new state secondary, but already he has met with the SEN team to tell them how they can help support him (he doesn’t have an EHCP but is on SEN register), been given intervention sessions for SaLT and been highlighted by the Head of IT as having special aptitude for computing and invited to coding sessions and differentiated work. I have been blown away by their support for him so far and this is an under-resourced state school who have been so welcoming to him. So I’d quite happily explain to anyone who’d listen why I don’t want to sign a petition for private schools to retain their charitable status and if it forces more kids into the state system then the government will have to put more money into the system which may generate better facilities for the existing schools, or some nice shiny new schools, all perfectly possible under Labour.

you sound like someone who does not understand the facts. So probably best not to sign on that basis. Try reading this to get a better view: https://www.edsk.org/publications/vat-on-private-school-fees/

How about

“Hi friend,

Sorry we can’t support your petition but we don’t believe in private schools and would find them too much of a stretch financially anyway (which is why we send our DC to state schools).

Look forward to catching up soon.

OP x”

Now she wants to know WHY exactly

You've told her why, exactly.

If your friend had a private education, it didn't do much for her levels of reading comprehension.

"Now she wants to know WHY exactly."

But she already KNOWS why, because you told her - "when she said will you sign, I said, sorry no - Private schools are businesses not charities so I agree with the proposed change."

So, she's just trying to guilt you into signing her self-serving petition. My answer would remain 'no'.

Oh it is so great that schools in your city area would absorb the excess! 40 schools!

I am in a rural area. We have 1 indy and 3 state senior schools.

Really interesting to read the comments on this thread. As a privately educated parent of two children currently attending prep school, I really wonder how a potential 20% uplift in fees will pan out.

In the 80s and 90s, my self employed parents worked really hard to send all four of us to local independent day schools. It was just about manageable - but that was with a very ordinary home life! I shared a bedroom, wore handmedowns and we went camping!

Anecdotally, I know of many grandparents now paying school fees. I know many will really struggle if faced with higher fees.
It’s now only really possible on a City income ..

If I could be absolutely sure that any funds raised and would be ringfenced solely to improve the state education system; I’d agree that it would be a good thing. But I just can’t see that happening.

Unsure if there would be a great exodus though. Living here in Hampshire, I’m not
entirely confident in Hampshire County Council’s financial state! Certainly, friends with children in the state sector have 30 pupils in their class.
https://www.advertiserandtimes.co.uk/news/county-council-in-bankruptcy-warning-amid-plea-for-governmen-9285024/

LoveCherryTree

Privately educated kids would easily get absorbed into our city schools
let alone the surrounding area. You wouldn’t even notice. We have nearly 40 large state schools and 3 private.

The changes would be long overdue.

B