To not sign friends petition about school fees ?

Whereforartthoudave · 2023-09-26T08:12:33+00:00

Or more to the point tell her why I’m not? friend grp - 3 families out of 9 send their kids to private school. One dad has decided to start a petition re Private schools losing their charity status - as in it’s not fair if they do. His DW has sent it round this morning. Stupidly rather than just ignore it - when she said will you sign, I said, sorry no - Private schools are businesses not charities so I agree with the proposed change. Now she wants to know WHY exactly. YANBU - ignore it and don’t get into a bun fight over private versus state school. I’m not judging their choices but I don’t think the schools should have tax breaks. YABU - tell her why. The why being I don’t agree with private schools at all, but her money her choice. And think it’s laughable that they have charity status when the majority ( and this is backed up by actual stats) do virtually nothing to earn it.

echt · 31/05/2024 22:59

Jesus! Signing.

echt · 31/05/2024 22:59

trevrrevtrev · 31/05/2024 14:55

Just ignore it and don't sign it but there is no need to make and song and dance about it. When it comes to maintaining good friendships over the years it's important to respect differing political opinions/life choices/circumstances.

The OP isn't making a song and dance about it, the friend is by being nosy about her reasons for not saying.

JustAnotherDadOf2 · 31/05/2024 22:47

I should add, my boy has gone from a high-performing (OFSTED Excellent) state school class of 30 kids with absolutely no interest or respect for their teachers where intimidation and violence was the norm, a high proportion of the kids are vaping / pretending to at least. The after school fights I've seen were viscous (worse even than what I experienced as a kid in the 70's/80's when noone really cared about all that sort of thing) and generally filmed and put up on SM to compound the misery and humiliation of the victim.
If you do well in a subject you would be bullied by the disinterested hard kids in and out of school and on SM.

His new private school has 9-11 kids per class. He receives extra tutoring of an hour on Saturdays 1:1 with one of the much older kids (voluntary), and has discovered he likes and is good at maths - he is catching up / almost caught up in maths which he now actually understands.

He is now engaged in classes (apart from Physics, but nothing is perfect), the teachers like him, his class mates like him and he is happy, he has found confidence and realises his worth. His life is transformed, he has just completed his Bronze Duke of Edinburgh, is volunteering at his old primary to help younger kids with reading and maths during his (much longer than state school summer holidays).

This costs me just south of £15K per year (which I cant really afford on my slightly above average salary). But unfairly, state school costs me £5.5K per year in tax. Considering his private school class size is 1/3 of a state school, I'd say the private school is run more efficiently and is getting far better results. Maybe state school system should be looking at how private schools are doing so well with less resources and model themselves on that.

So, this will cost me £15K per year for 3 years, but you know what? my boy is worth £45K - he probably now has a decent future ahead of him, ok we wont be having holidays abroad for the next 3 or 4 years, but that's ok, because we get 52 mostly happy weeks a year, not 50 weeks of misery and a week to 10 days of sunny foreign holidays to forget that misery.

So Kier Starma can shove his desperate-for-power petty vote-pleasing nonsense up his privileged condescending no-new-ideas backside (he probably had my vote until this), and so can any parents who value their 2 weeks of sun and surf over the rest of their kids lives -or- would deny me the right to do what is best for my boys.

It's one thing to say, "I'd do anything for my kids" while sat at home watching daytime TV, but I and my wife are actually doing it -and- (by-the-way) we are without-complaint funding the state-school system despite getting absolutely no value from it.

trevrrevtrev · 31/05/2024 14:55

Just ignore it and don't sign it but there is no need to make and song and dance about it. When it comes to maintaining good friendships over the years it's important to respect differing political opinions/life choices/circumstances.

MrsSkylerWhite · 30/05/2024 19:23

pinkpopcorn123 · 26/09/2023 11:22
I think it is you that's being naive. Loosing charitable status and adding VAT will change the way private schools work. They will become true businesses with all the intended and unintended consequences that will bring. It will also need to be applied to all forms of tutoring to be fair. Probably best, to stay out of it altogether with your friend if you want to keep them rather than entering a debate with no right answer, just differing opinions”

Oh please, they’ve been businesses plain and simple for decades. Ours certainly were, nearly 30 years ago. Monet was always the bottom line.

”Charities” - 🤣🤣🤣

JustAnotherDadOf2 · 30/05/2024 17:10

Whereforartthoudave · 28/09/2023 16:59

‘. It was that the OP could ask her friend why she thinks this private school should be a charity in the first place.’

she doesn’t. They aren’t. And most to f all to earn any kind of status as a charity. They’re businesses selling business services to wealthy people who can afford luxuries.
She knows this. But seems to believe that anything to do with education should be given charity status as an exception.

What about Palliative Care Homes run as Charities? What about your local theatre? What about some scheme to get people off drugs?

Private schools are mostly made up of ordinary kids with families who have no other choice. The super rich make up a tiny, tiny percentage. There are rules in place that an organisation must adhere to if it is to be a registered charity; essentially it is not profit-motivated - money is inwardly invested, and cannot serve to benefit the trustee's family members.

MummytoAAandX · 30/05/2024 17:03

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 26/09/2023 09:15

I'd just say "I'm not getting into this with you. You chose private school, I chose state. Neither of us owe the other any justification. I'm not signing the petition because I don't have the same opinion on this as you. I suspect you don't want to know what I actually think - possibly you just want to argue against each point I would make. I'm not the source of your frustration here, so channel all that into your petition, good luck"

This

JustAnotherDadOf2 · 30/05/2024 16:49

It is perfectly reasonable for your friend to ask you to sign the petition, it is your choice to sign or not, and if you want to discuss your reasons why, it is your right to ask the question - you might both end up better informed as a result.

Bear in mind that families with a child in private school still contribute 100% to state school - so paying for places that aren't even being used - this is a huge benefit to the state school system. If they leave private school for state school that benefit is lost, and state schools will need to find more places but receive no extra funds.

I have one child in private school - I put him in there because he was a target of aggressive and sustained bullying as he's very tall for his age, and there were county lines issues at his school, and he would have become a target for that. The school did their best, but the bullying was from a gang of 30 or so inner-ciy hard nuts, and it went on into Whatsapp and Snapchat. It was becoming a mental health issue. The school wanted us to pursue an ADHD/CAMS route (which would take about 2 years, and far too late for my boy), but we knew this was just their way of attracting more funds.
We couldn't put him into another state school (no places available), so private was all that was left. So, I cashed in a pension to ensure his school-fee's for the next 3.5 years.

Starma's plan to win votes by double taxing me to fund your child at state school as well as mine at private is another £9K that I cant afford, and would be a disaster for us. It'll make no difference to the super-rich, but the vast majority of kids at private are normal families with normal earnings. If the kids from regular families come out of private and in to public schools where will the places come from?

If you want to see state schools under even more burden and stretched even thinner, then by all means support Starma's idiotic half-baked plan.

threatmatrix · 22/10/2023 11:22

Where did you get those figures? There’s not enough places for the children that need them. That’s a fact.

anon666 · 02/10/2023 08:28

Tell us more!!!

Original poster

Whereforartthoudave · 02/10/2023 00:47

so Had dinner last night with rhe parents, and we did get into it - not my idea or prompt but bloody helk
n

OP posts:

anon666 · 29/09/2023 19:00

Christ's hospital was literally the one school that sprang to mind as an exception.

Its a complete strawman to hold that up as evidence of charitable intentions on the part of all private schools.

There may well be one or two others that aren't on the radar except locally, but they are bringing a lot of dead weight with them. 🤣

Original poster

Whereforartthoudave · 29/09/2023 11:41

Even the Telegraph has shown figures that prove ‘charitable’ works by private schools are negligible, less than 2-% of pupils get any any kind ‘free’ education through scholarship or bursaries and that it’s the wealthiest people sending their children to private school.

Because - of course it is. With fees averaging £20k but the average pay in the U.K. around £27k who else is paying for private education??

Still, you have the money and want to spend it on private education for your kids - go for it.
Just don’t expect tax breaks and false charity status to last much longer.

OP posts:

TheCupboardUnderTheStairsAtTheMojoDojoCasaHouse · 29/09/2023 11:07

Whereforartthoudave · 29/09/2023 10:29

‘Christ's Hospital in Sussex’

very much the exception and not the rule.
Schools that are actually charities could be classed as such while the Winchesters, Brighton Colleges etc lose their fake tax break status.
But how much is ‘reduced’? Fees?

Our nearest local private school gives out ‘bursaries’ to 40% of students - they proudly announce. The ‘bursaries’ are not means tested and are 5% of the £19k fees.

You don’t have to be good at maths to work out that reducing fees by less than £1k isn’t going to suddenly fill the school with WC or low income pupils. Not when you factor in the fact that the essential elements of the school uniform = £700 ( £135 for a blazer anyone? School blouses that cost £35 each? School skirts that cost £70 each? Compulsory black leather shoes? )

Nor does it come close to any definition of ‘charitable’ in the real world. But it does look good in a brochure.
As does being part of the local ’community’ and ‘sharing’ facilities. the ‘sharing’ of the facilities means you can rent their facilities -
Just as you can with any of the local
State schools here. For ££.

For 2019/20

£16.8m in bursaries
The average bursary was 83% off, including 93 pupils with 100% off (out of 636 receiving bursaries).
13% of their pupils are eligible for FSM
95% of their Y7 intake is from state schools
6 of their pupils are Looked After Children (this is representative of the wider population)
https://www.christs-hospital.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Impact-Report-2019-2020.pdf

Original poster

Whereforartthoudave · 29/09/2023 10:35

I recently rang around the schools to see if anyone would lend us their ‘facilities’ for kids charity event.
The 4 city private schools
would rent the space for ££ only. And 1 only if their pupils were involved for their DOE too. 1 helpfully suggested charging a small fee for people coming to the event ( on top of fundraising) to cover the cost.

2 state schools would give us the space but we would need to give some ££ to cover the staff to open/ shut the grounds.About a sixth of the cost of hiring the private school grounds.
2 state schools offered their pitches for free.

we went with the free option. Obvs.

OP posts:

Original poster

Whereforartthoudave · 29/09/2023 10:29

‘Christ's Hospital in Sussex’

very much the exception and not the rule.
Schools that are actually charities could be classed as such while the Winchesters, Brighton Colleges etc lose their fake tax break status.
But how much is ‘reduced’? Fees?

Our nearest local private school gives out ‘bursaries’ to 40% of students - they proudly announce. The ‘bursaries’ are not means tested and are 5% of the £19k fees.

You don’t have to be good at maths to work out that reducing fees by less than £1k isn’t going to suddenly fill the school with WC or low income pupils. Not when you factor in the fact that the essential elements of the school uniform = £700 ( £135 for a blazer anyone? School blouses that cost £35 each? School skirts that cost £70 each? Compulsory black leather shoes? )

Nor does it come close to any definition of ‘charitable’ in the real world. But it does look good in a brochure.
As does being part of the local ’community’ and ‘sharing’ facilities. the ‘sharing’ of the facilities means you can rent their facilities -
Just as you can with any of the local
State schools here. For ££.

OP posts:

TheCupboardUnderTheStairsAtTheMojoDojoCasaHouse · 29/09/2023 09:59

Whereforartthoudave · 29/09/2023 07:50

‘They are charities, by the actual law.’

Yes, they are. But should they be? No of course not.
unless when you think ‘charity’ you think of a business that charges its clients 10 of thousands in fees for their services while giving away nothing for free.

Some schools are different.

Christ's Hospital in Sussex for instance - 11% of their pupils have a free place, 67% pay significantly reduced fees, and 22% pay full fees.

They take a significant number of pupils who are in foster care or with social services involvement into their boarding houses, are very ethnically and socioeconomically diverse for an independent school more so than some comprehensives in leafy areas and have excellent outcomes.

FloorWipes · 29/09/2023 09:11

Whereforartthoudave · 29/09/2023 07:50

‘They are charities, by the actual law.’

Yes, they are. But should they be? No of course not.
unless when you think ‘charity’ you think of a business that charges its clients 10 of thousands in fees for their services while giving away nothing for free.

However these organisations don't turn a profit and don't generally operate like a business, so it's obviously not the same as an average business, even if you feel ideologically that it isn't a charity. There are some schools who function in a more business-like way. The average fee is £15,200 which I wouldn't say is 10s of thousands. Unless you mean across an entire education, but then that would be true for state school per pupil spending as well.

Original poster

Whereforartthoudave · 29/09/2023 07:50

‘They are charities, by the actual law.’

Yes, they are. But should they be? No of course not.
unless when you think ‘charity’ you think of a business that charges its clients 10 of thousands in fees for their services while giving away nothing for free.

OP posts:

Lolaandbehold · 28/09/2023 23:46

I suspect removing charity status from private schools is the right thing to to do and on that basis, the increase fees wouldn’t concern me too much. That said, I do know that the DC’s prep will not increase fees by 20% but neither will they commit to bursaries to the same extent as before. And if they’re no longer charities, I can see why that is also a fair point. So private school fees will move further out of reach for many.

notlucreziaborgia · 28/09/2023 17:16

Whereforartthoudave · 28/09/2023 16:59

‘. It was that the OP could ask her friend why she thinks this private school should be a charity in the first place.’

she doesn’t. They aren’t. And most to f all to earn any kind of status as a charity. They’re businesses selling business services to wealthy people who can afford luxuries.
She knows this. But seems to believe that anything to do with education should be given charity status as an exception.

Your friend is correct. They are charities, by the actual law. The legal definition of charity is different to what you may understand it to be.

This explains it well:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/575bd0a740f0b66bda00000e/The_Independent_Schools_Council_v_The_Charity_Commission_for_England___Wales_and_The_National_Council_for_Voluntary_Organisation__2__HM_Antorney_General_v_The_Charity_Com_and_The_ISC.pdf

Something does not have predominantly benefit those in poverty in order to be considered charitable.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/575bd0a740f0b66bda00000e/The_Independent_Schools_Council_v_The_Charity_Commission_for_England___Wales_and_The_National_Council_for_Voluntary_Organisation__2__HM_Antorney_General_v_The_Charity_Com_and_The_ISC.pdf

Original poster

Whereforartthoudave · 28/09/2023 16:59

‘. It was that the OP could ask her friend why she thinks this private school should be a charity in the first place.’

she doesn’t. They aren’t. And most to f all to earn any kind of status as a charity. They’re businesses selling business services to wealthy people who can afford luxuries.
She knows this. But seems to believe that anything to do with education should be given charity status as an exception.

OP posts:

griegwithhimandhim · 28/09/2023 15:14

Scaevola · 27/09/2023 20:43

However if the school is a charity, it can't just stop being one. he charity has to be wound up in accordance with the Charity Commission standards. This is a very important safeguard - charitably owned assets cannot just be converted into private property (owned by a business or an individual)

So if Labour proposes a mechanism which allows schools to change status without having to follow the normal procedures for charities, then I think many would leap at it. That mechanism would of course have to avoid disruption to all other charities which have the Provision of Education as one of their legally defined aims.

And it would yield a few hundred per pupil per term (based on different handling of things such as VAT), which is likely to be easily absorbed.

VAT on fees (which is nothing to do with UK charitable status, but legacy of EU VAT rules which prevents taxation on fees for nurseries/pre-schools, schools and universities) would of course yield much more, depending on what rate they chose to set it at and would affect all institutions, not just the schools who are charities.

Show quote history

Well yes, I understand the financial and legal implications, but that wasn't my point. It was that the OP could ask her friend why she thinks this private school should be a charity in the first place.

pinkpopcorn123 · 28/09/2023 14:57

Whereforartthoudave · 28/09/2023 07:14

‘(state-educated plus state educated kids, but before you get too judgmental about it, consider if your school would cope if there were eg 5 extra kids in every class. )’

i love that private parents think they’ll somehow just demand their way in to schools that are over subscribed.
You’ll be given places in the schools that aren’t - there are plenty.

And as for class sizes- in DCsSecondary state school they’re in classes of 15 -20 for most subjects now .
less for languages like German or Mandarin.

I'm not sure why you think that think that private school parents will bully their way into schools. You sound gleeful at the prospect of them going to presumably less desirable schools. I honestly can't get on board with that attitude. It's unpleasant. You're talking about young people's lives.

Your talk of Mandarin classes has me lol. Obviously from an affluent area. No Mandarin classes where I live. We do have state schools where children don't all fit in the classroom and some have to sit in the corridor. All is not equal in the world of state education.

notlucreziaborgia · 28/09/2023 12:21

ThinkAboutItTomorrow · 28/09/2023 10:39

@notlucreziaborgia I'm under no illusion it's a magic bullet. Spending per pupil needs a real term return to 2010 levels. And that's on top of the capital expenditure fund required to make up for the last 14 years of under investment in buildings and equipment.

But just because it's not enough doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.

Doesn’t mean it should happen either, or indeed will.

Easy promise to make, easy one to renege on. Same as the promise to strip private schools of charity status.