To hate the Daily Mail and its anti WFH vendetta

@CleverLilViper There's no need for the 'FFS' I don't think - I wasn't being impolite - just sharing my views. For what it's worth, they're not just my personal views about myself and how I work best, I manage a large team and have done for many years (50 plus people). Objectively, the return to the office has improved the team's performance in every sense - mental health and wellbeing (as measured formally by HR/them, not by me), fewer people on performance improvement plans, better financial results for the company, more promotions and pay rises.

I'm aware this might not be the case for every team or company in the country, but I was trying to point out that there are good reasons (beyond Tory capitalist ones) for people to work together in person sometimes. And as I've previously said, our staff are only in the office 3 days a week, and working hugely flexible hours, so there is still a lot of flexibility there.

Certainly decent workplaces should be willing to do a lot of things. I presume we all know, however, that not all workplaces are decent, and that it doesn't always work out this way in practice?

That is interesting @AConnoisseurOfBiscuits and chimes with my experience that some early careers colleagues are using remote working to avoid more challenging situations - of course a meeting with more senior people is "safer" if you can join online and switch off your camera - but it won't get you the exposure and experience that attending in person will.

Just as importantly it won't allow me, as a manager, to assess whether you understand softer skills like appropriate dress, greeting people properly, remaining engaged in the meeting etc..

Why can't you see or understand that that opinion is only reflective of you and your personal feelings?

Just because WFH wouldn't have benefitted you-doesn't mean it doesn't benefit other people. FFS.

The issue with blaming WFH for the service issues faced in the public sector, namely civil service, is that it is such an oversimplification and doesn't even touch the true cause of the issues.

The reason there is backlogs is due to a variety of factors. One of them is a chronic lack of funding and staffing issues, but sure, blame the staff working from home for issues they didn't cause or create.

Getting people back into the office won't solve staffing or funding issues. In fact, it'd likely exacerbate the issues as people would leave and find employment with employers offering WFH. That's a reality the "back to office," crew refuse to accept.

So, essentially, it would be taking one benefit away from employees to punish them for issues they didn't cause.

People have a vision of the WFH "class" as if we're all middle-class, soy latte sipping, in our big, spacious gardens and that we're all incredibly privileged. That isn't the case for many-many who work from home are entry level IT people, call centre staff, office admins, people who are working minimum wage jobs and WFH enables them to save a bit of money on the commute.

But sure, let's punish those people because some people don't like WFH and want to ban it because they can't WFH so why should anyone else? Well, I'm sorry, Brenda, but when you signed up to be a nurse, did you think WFH would be part of the package?

Really interesting post @AConnoisseurOfBiscuits.

For most people, speaking to other people in the real world, in person, on a regular basis, is a good thing. It's not only evil Tory capitalist landlords who think this.

Any decent workplace should be willing to work around the needs of introverts, or those with nuerodiversity or disability. Modern workplaces are not, for the most part, Mad Men-style macho drinking dens where the weak are mocked.

Quite clearly for the majority of people, some in-office in-person interaction is beneficial. I myself am an introvert in some ways and I have suffered from periods of anxiety/mental health issues in my life. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that at those points in my life, had total WFH been allowed, I would have jumped on it. Would that have been beneficial to me or my career long term? I don't think so.

I agree the commute is an issue for many.

I guess for me I come at it from the viewpoint of how it can be individually advantageous but societally disadvantageous. Just purely anecdotally of course but I've found that one of the big issues with no "compulsory" mixing between people of all sexes and ages is that used-to-be fringe internet views are now mainstream.

So many of my ex-classmates spend all day on the internet and at home and many believe that women are all now gold-diggers who are either on OF or waiting to be a SAHM so they can divorce their mediocre husbands for a payout in the future. reddit is ridiculously popular among my peers and if you see the prevailing viewpoints on there esp when it comes to women, it's no wonder someone will adopt these viewpoints too when they have no real contact with others irl.

Surely this isn't healthy for society?

That's an issue for their managers, and dealing the demands of managing a remote team.

@AConnoisseurOfBiscuits that is a really interesting post (if a little sad in terms of people feeling so anxious and being so isolated).

actually WFH does not work in many occupations!

Of course it doesn't work in many occupation, but conversely it does in many others.

why should people be allowed to work from home?

Why shouldn't they? In our hybrid-working organisation it has led to better work-life balance, which feeds into people's workplace wellbeing and improved staff engagement and generally a less stressed workforce. Productivity hasn't been affected negatively, quite the opposite actually. And above all, employee retention has improved markedly, especially for an organisation that had a staggering staff turnover pre WFH policy.

I know for a fact the WFH did not work in my husband's legal office!!

So your anecdotal 'evidence' means people's shouldn't be allowed to work from home.

This is true of any employee in any situation but at least when they were in the office, these people were in a structured environment and given help/support in managing their time.

Maybe they were in the offices you worked in @Funderthighs! I can assure you this was not universal practice.

Some sectors prefer it!

I m a paid employee for a charity and in this sector it means they save a lot on office costs

There are pros and cons its not by any means a panacea but its useful to be able to finish at 4 pm ready for dc to come in at 4. 15. No wasting time commuting no having to get 1-2 hours after school childcare.

DM probably hates it because those who benefit most are mums, disabled psople, parents of children with SEND etc some of the people they hate most.

I ignore it, its SO obvious now that its to vilify WFH because the rich tory landlords want their office space occupied.

People say "oh you should take responsibility for your own life and volunteer or find clubs/groups/hobbies". Yes, it was my fault, and yes, I should take more responsibility but we as people generally will follow the path of least resistance. I'm no longer a hermit, but being an isolated hermit is increasingly becoming something that's normalised

up to them and personally I would rather WFH and choose my own hobbies than work in the office, have a long (and expensive) commute and come home to collapse in a heap. Admittedly my view is coloured by the fact my employer is in London, if I had a 10 minute drive or cycle ride to work things would be different.

We didn't have monthly threads complaining about meetings that should have been emails, bad commutes, the disadvantages to introverts etc

Because people hadn't been shown that there was an alternative. I have worked from home for the best part of two decades, but pre-covid most people only did it on Fridays and if they were having a parcel delivered/work done in the house.

I'm a big fan of hybrid working.

I'm in my 20s and fully WFH jobs are absolutely detrimental to many people my age IMO. So many of my peers do not leave the house anymore and are increasingly isolated. Online games and discord are the main form of social interaction for many.

People talk about young families. Have you seen the statistics? Many young people do not date or have relationships any more. Almost every person I know my age are single or in LDR with someone from a completely different country whom they met in a video game. Maybe it's because I studied computer science where people are more introverted to begin with, but I don't think the huge swathes of young people choosing to never leave the house is healthy.

I'm not even going to get into the societal problems that prolonged isolation causes. So many of my peers are anxious about the most basic of things. Maybe being forced to go into the office has left some of these people behind but then you now see the average person who would perhaps be ok if they were pushed out their comfort zone find it more and more difficult to do "difficult" things. I would know. I spent two years getting food delivered and sitting at home all day long.

People say "oh you should take responsibility for your own life and volunteer or find clubs/groups/hobbies". Yes, it was my fault, and yes, I should take more responsibility but we as people generally will follow the path of least resistance. I'm no longer a hermit, but being an isolated hermit is increasingly becoming something that's normalised.

So you manage those people appropriately. If people get on with their work and achieve their objectives you let them work where they want (which may well be full time in the office).

If they don't, they work where you can keep your eye on them.

If people need to be in the office to mentor and train younger/less experienced colleagues, they come into the office.

It isn't difficult.

Friday night drinks aren't a thing anymore - people have WFH on Fridays for years, way before covid.

But commercial property isn't stable. I've had pension funds where the commercial property fund was blocked - as in, I couldn't get immediate access to it if I wanted to withdraw funds. I transferred my pension and the commercial property bit had to transfer after the rest of it.

Those defending WFH are largely assuming that every employee is conscientious and good at managing their own time. As anyone who works in an office knows, not everyone is. This is true of any employee in any situation but at least when they were in the office, these people were in a structured environment and given help/support in managing their time. There’ll be many efficient, conscientious people working from home but there’ll also be many people who don’t have the same focus.

WFH is open to as many abuses as office working, but I don't remember this level of naval gazing about the disadvantages of office working before the pandemic.

We didn't have monthly threads complaining about meetings that should have been emails, bad commutes, the disadvantages to introverts etc.

But both need to be well designed. My current employer is crap at hybrid working, they get none of the benefits so far as I can see.

The biggest reason for the rise in council tax is the 40% reduction in the central government grant to local authorities. The shortfall has had to be recouped from the council tax or met by making savings.

I suspect that their decision to build a new office and get shot of their old one may have been made pre-Covid and WFH, too.

Where I live, both district and county councils went to a form of hybrid working pre-Covid, with staff expected to WFH 2 days pw, so that they could reduce their office costs. And the district council merged all central services with a neighbouring authority to save money.

Despite all that, they've still had to shed staff to make savings, eg there are now 4 housing officers where there used to be 8, and it now takes 6 weeks to get a housing officer to reply to an email.

Times have changed then. I used to work in a Fleet St pub. All the hacks from the Express , Star and Standard would be there all day , everyday.

I often wondered who actually typed up their rancid stories about lazy car workers , single mothers , immigrants, militant trade unions etc.

I expect the moral panic about WFH is really about empty offices going unrented - owned by their chums in the City.

actually WFH does not work in many occupations! why should people be allowed to work from home? Just think what happened with the passport office or even DVLA during lockdown! Mail not answered, documents only available in office but no one to answer calls!! I know for a fact the WFH did not work in my husband's legal office!!

Again though @AllAtSea53, by definition the young people who are choosing to attend the office more must be the ones who are able to. The young people to whom in person attendance functions as a barrier or a disadvantage aren't visible. Just as they weren't ten, twenty, thirty years ago. This is why generalisations are a problem.

I can well believe there are young people who'd be better off with the pre 2020 model, including those you work with. But they are not the standard or the default.

Agreed.

I think it will also make people more vulnerable in redundancy rounds etc

(And I say this with some frustration as I am disabled and working from home really helps me but it is just naive to pretend there aren't disadvantages for employers and employees - some hybrid compromise is always likely to work best)