To think the gender and sex Ed wars are created by tories

Yep, women have been trying bloody hard to raise this issue for many years. Long before the 'tory press' had anything to do with it.

But the only reason we all care so much about the gender stuff is the total catastrophizing in the Tory press

Oh OP, no.

The reason I care so much about "gender issues", is because I care so much about child protection & the safety, dignity, privacy & rights of women.

Its curious that some are incapable of considering that views other than their own may be due to anything other than stupidity.

Seems like an attempt to bolster the ego and emotionally driven rather than rational.

@StefanosHill - no. I'm gender criticial but that does not mean I'm content with giving the Conservative Party a free run. Thanks to them there have been rapists pretending to be women in prisons. They did that.

@FOJN -
People need to own their vote. I don't care how you voted, but Brexit was an unbelievably stupid idea because there was no plan for what happened afterwards. That's like jumping off a cliff and wondering if there is soft landing.

Globalization does not stop with the EU. Britain is simply doing it differently (higher levels developing country immigration) but it's certainly not making plans for its own people.

The SDP.

and one free swipe at a confused teenager

Is this meant to represent the whole GC position?

I'm glad I've got under your skin enough for you to spend time c&p quotes from me out of context, to make it look like I believe something I don't.

Here's my full post:

Yes I agree
I just really hate they are now forcing the "left v right" culture war when they are as complicit in the capture as anyone else. That's what I mean about being adults. Labour as much as the Tories. The "I'm voting conservative because they know what a woman is!!!!" only encourages the culture war approach.

By making it a "left v right", "with us or against us" issue, I worry we will end up with a Conservative government who can claim a mandate to treat women differently to men. And then use that to fuck us over. Similar to what's happened with Brexit.

The political pressure and reporting has forced Labour to say they will protect women's rights. So let's keep that up prior to the election, on them and other parties.

The answer as feminists is not voting conservative. That's like turkeys voting for Christmas.

I don't have "complete contempt" for anyone with right leaning views. I have completed contempt for the current conservative party and the voters who think they are a good option. In my opinion the Conservatives have destroyed our country and I'm terrified of where we will be after 5 more years of their utter incompetence.

Brexit, Trump etc happened because cynical populist politicians campaigned on people's fears, and played to the "fuck you" vote. Those voters did fuck us all over (mainly unintentionally), because what they thought they were voting for was never on offer. And yes, they are entitled to vote how they like in the upcoming election but I don't have to pretend that people voting for Brexit unicorns/conservative feminist utopia have any kind of credible point.

Populism a totally irresponsible approach by (mainly right wing) politicians and the current Conservatives are doing it again with the "at least Rishi Sunak knows what a woman is!!!!" ridiculousness.

People who voted to remain in 2016 somehow seem to now be responsible for the Brexit clusterfuck, because we didn't "listen to concerns" from leave voters. And now people like you are implying that somehow if the Conservatives win it'll be because left wing voters are on a purity spiral. Come on. It'll be because right leaning voters are putting their ideology over assessing who actually is competent to run the country. This conservative cabinet lie, break the law repeatedly, funnel money to their mates and do nothing to help anyone except themselves. Anyone voting for them as a "fuck you" to a party who haven't been in power for 13 years needs their head read.

The problem is you assume you know why people voted for Brexit, usually it's because they are stupid, racist or gullible enough to believe a message on the side of a bus but that only represents a small proportion of the people who voted leave. Those with different reasons didn't bother making their case because remainders just insulted them and everyone ignored the left wing case for leave.

If you're on the bones of your arse then of course you are going to be considering the benefits to you because you don't have the luxury of being able to prioritise the greater good.

it is factually accurate to say there has been reporting that is Sunaks electoral strategy to focus on wedge issues like trans rights to win the election. It is factually accurate to say the Conservatives are at least as culpable as any other party with respect to the current gender identity mess. It is factually accurate to say they are in power with a huge majority so could do something about it if they wanted to.

It is also factually accurate to say that Labour could defang this evil Tory strategy entirely by simply committing to

• repealing the GRA
• confirming in law that women are adult human females and that trans women are adult human males who wish to live socially as they believe women do but are not themselves women regardless of any surgeries or dysphoria they may have
• confirming in law that trans women of course have the right to be free from violence, abuse and discrimination because of how they present, but no right to be included in any provisions that are women-only.

Dear god, they could probably defang the whole thing just by saying they are prepared to consider it if they were to make the language they used as clear and unequivocal as that!

If they wanted to.

@FOJN - wouldn't disagree. But of course, the issue about Brexit was "what do I get?".

The answer is nothing, and now a far bit less in terms of spending. Okay if you are well off, not great if you depend on public services.

Professionally, it's the gift that keeps on giving. There is no end of mess to be considered.

Vote Conservative. 300 million for the NHS. Gender laws changed, and one free swipe at a confused teenager that you can call woke to keep you warm this winter.

You might find these books interesting. The political scientists agree that globalisation has been a disaster for working class people.

https://www.waterstones.com/book/despised/paul-embery/9781509539994

https://www.waterstones.com/book/values-voice-and-virtue/matthew-goodwin/9780141999098

Well you originally said a specifically right wing insult, which is certainly isn't. (A comparison is something like "libtard", which clearly is)

Ring/left wing aside, I've seen the same pattern in many subcultures / fandoms. FWIW I was specifically thinking about goths, but I've seen it in punks, rockabillies, skiers, programmers, guitarists, trekkies, wild swimmers....

Fundamentally, it's easy to gain social status in an insular, single interest group by calling out (maybe spitefully, maybe just affectionately) those who aren't matching up to the "perfect" ideal of the group. In most situations - the trekkies, the swimmers and so on - that just results in sadness. In political movements and revolutions it can go as far as violence and death.

I don't agree that identifying a negative pattern in a situation is automatically insulting those caught up in it. It may be an unwelcome observation but it's not insulting.

Some situations are simply not healthy and we should not pretend they are because those caught up in them find that truth uncomfortable.

As you’ve got it so right so far - any thoughts on next US Presidential election?, just out of curiosity

It's a bit too early to say. I think it might be a bit clearer when the nominees are confirmed.

@ArabeIIaScott - I did nicely out of Brexit and still do. Even a mess is an opportunity if you look at it the right way.

I am richer, but in a much poorer country. Purely for my wallet I will be delighted if people continue to vote Conservative. From a societal perspective, it's a disaster.

Lol no worries, that answer is more than enough to explain your position ✌

There we go again with impugning people with differing views.

I have only noticed this tribal ad homming so clearly in the past few years - I think previously I just didn't register it so clearly.

It's not a terribly good way to persuade people to agree with you or vote for someone.

The Brexit vote wasn't a fuck you, it was a fuck myself vote.

I mean, some did well out of it but anyone stupid enough to vote so emotionally almost certainly imagined that Boris Johnson was a sincere person and there really would be money for the NHS.

Interesting particularly the Clinton part

But this I correctly predicted Brexit, Trump and the 2019 Tory landslide that’s actually pretty good going as predictions go, I can’t say I got them all right

As you’ve got it so right so far - any thoughts on next US Presidential election?, just out of curiosity

A purity spiral is a social dynamic in a group or social movement where members engage in competitive victimhood, or in the zealotry or purity of their views

Is this you?

I don't care who you vote for. Just don't pretend your Conservative vote is motivated by concern for women.

I don't want to tell you who to vote for. Great it's not the woman hating nasty party though.

The answer as feminists is not voting conservative. That's like turkeys voting for Christmas.

Of course, it could just be a common right wing insult that I don't know about because I don't move in those circles.

Please explain how these posts do not demonstrate complete contempt for anyone with right leaning political views? Conservative politics is mainstream not extremist.

You know during the 2016 US election cycle various polling groups tracked undecided voters and determined that the Democrats lost when Clinton referred to Trump voters as a "basket of deplorables". I correctly predicted Brexit, Trump and the 2019 Tory landslide, not because my politics are right wing but because I can see how left wing activists and supporters insulting Tory/right leaning voters alienates them and leads to a "fuck you" vote.

Perhaps you could confine your criticism to the Tory party rather than its voters if your aim is to persuade people.

Yes RavingStone

Because people don't want to 'read 4 or 5 questions' that might challenge their world view or are simply needing to not deviate in their beliefs in case they contradict their friends or social circle, there are many out there who cannot understand that the first alarms were raised by left leaning feminists!

In fact, we see posters saying 'well, no lesbians believe that men cannot be women' when many of those very first feminists were also lesbians!

The studies over the past few years have started to show that the group of people aged between 18-28 are very concerned and do not raise their doubts with others for fear of being ostracised. So they simply don't discuss it.

Then people who aren't doing the reading and the thinking simply believe that all those in that age group agree, when it starts to become quite clear in other studies that a large portion of them do not agree at all.

There has been a significant destabilisation of language where tolerant, kind, compassion have been twisted around to mean the opposite of what the original intended meaning was and should still be. This gets dismissed by those without a fucking clue as 'well, language evolves'. No, it doesn't becomes destabilised in this way naturally. That 'language evolves' is another sign of someone who simply hasn't done any depth of thinking about the topic.

Lots of posters want to make this a left right battle and I question their motivations.

I bloody well wish it was a left right battle, then I'd just choose the side that is in accordance with my views.

I mean, how is this not an insult?
A purity spiral is a social dynamic in a group or social movement where members engage in competitive victimhood, or in the zealotry or purity of their views

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral

I know what a purity spiral is.
I don't understand how when I present my position, which in the real world appears to be a centrist, radical feminist, GC position, on here I am repeatedly accused of being affected by a "purity spiral".

And yes it has been used against me as an insult. Because it implies I'm ideologically driven rather than just having a different, entirely reasonable, opinion.

Now I have no idea who anyone is in real life. But it is factually accurate to say there has been reporting that is Sunaks electoral strategy to focus on wedge issues like trans rights to win the election. It is factually accurate to say the Conservatives are at least as culpable as any other party with respect to the current gender identity mess. It is factually accurate to say they are in power with a huge majority so could do something about it if they wanted to.

None of this is about "purity spirals" or Labour. Its about the conservatives. Lots of posters want to make this a left right battle and I question their motivations. Say Rishi Sunak wanted to influence "Winchester woman" to vote conservative. What better way to do that than get the message out on mumsnet?

It really is remarkable just how these topics are often universally supported across all political spectrums, yet it is denied just how many 'left wing' leaning people support the topics being fully discussed and expect that decisions should be made based on evidence and not ideological grounds...

It is beyond tedious. Especially when gender ideology is so capitalist and individualistic; lining the pockets of American drug companies and surgeons.

I criticise Labour because I'm a socialist and because i want a socialist government, albeit one that isn't misogynist.

Gender idealogues probably aren't all Tory or hostile state plants. Many are just misguided, in thrall to US culture or over compensating for repressed upbringings. But they sure as fuck are working well to fragment the left.

I admire the feminists that can carry on working with Labour (I resigned membership) but I don't think it's fair to demand women put their rights to the side for the good of the party. Misogyny is not just a temporary blip, our entire society is built upon it. Actual change will require politicians brave enough to tell the misogynist bullies to fuck off.