To think the gender and sex Ed wars are created by tories

"Gender" directly affects me and my family and several other families I know. Families whose children are suffering very direct physical and mental harm from this. If it doesn't affect you then count yourself lucky. Your good luck might not last.

And although this might not be the biggest issue for you it certainly isn't trivial. OK, if you're happy to share (you, your daughter and your mother) the women's changing rooms and shower at your local swimming pool with a beefy six foot physically intact bloke who identifies as a women then that's up to you. Or if you don't think it matters what sex of person is responsible for your intimate physical care when you're ill, or for your daughters' or for your elderly mother's care, or if it doesn't matter to you if someone is trying to force themselves into spaces for the other sex and the reasons why they might be doing that, then you crack on. If you don't think women should have the right to talk about their experiences of rape in a space where no-one has a penis or male patterns of aggression and entitlement that's also up to you. But other people really do care, right up there with climate change.

Why people imagine this issue should have anything to do with party politics, left versus right, Tories versus Labour or whatever else, utterly defeats me. There are people like you with their heads in the sand on all sides of this.

Politicians on all sides have massively let us down. Some have tried to make it a party politcal issue and others have silenced voices of dissent within their own parties. The Greens in Scotland believe in self id so much they'd happily sacrifice the power to do anything about climate change, well that's their poor choice. As for the SNP, given my own ethnic background, who I am married to, and who I am a parent of, I take it very personally when the First Minister for Scotland announces that people who don't agree with her on self id support Nazis, homophobes and transphobes. She even had the brass neck to say it right in front of the Asian woman MSP who had spent hours in committee sessions patiently asking how self-id would affect the rights of women from religious minorities to single sex spaces. A few months I wrote to MPs and MSPs about related issues, and one or two Conservatives really were the only people who replied, yes we can see there's a problem.

It might not be your biggest political issue, sure there are many issues in the world. But whatever your prioirities are, one thing you need to accept is that the world does not divide up tidily into nice wellmeaning socialists and nasty Tories.

That's even worse...

Is it going to be GPs?

Or is it going to be a doctor / doctors offering "specialist services" in diagnosis of gender dysphoria? And how rigorous will the process be?

Here is Annaliese Dodds's own piece in the Guardian. It says "one doctor". No details.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/24/labour-will-lead-on-reform-of-transgender-rights-and-we-wont-take-lectures-from-the-divisive-tories

Activist GP's will be delighted, the rest may not be quite so pleased.

I have no idea why anyone who agrees with the GC position, or states they do in any case, would welcome GPs okaying legal change of sex certificates to go from male to female.

Exactly. It's self ID with a placatory administrative step which means it's a complete waste of time and money because it does nothing to address concerns about single sex spaces and services or safeguarding.

I wonder what GPs will think of this. Or where they're going to get the time.

I have no idea why anyone who agrees with the GC position, or states they do in any case, would welcome GPs okaying legal change of sex certificates to go from male to female.

'@Brainworm, I'm highlighting the ways the government are failing women and children today, while making a mockery of the whole thing by using it as a Culture War'

I think this government is dire and has caused untold damage. They get no support from me. They are using this to make themselves look good and Labour bad, but this is because Labour have been bad and are yet to be good. This is Labour's problem to fix.

'Anything to divert anger away from their complete failure of Government''

Why can't we have anger about the shit show that has been the Tory Government and, at the same time, Labour's shit show in recent years on women's rights issues?

It comes across as a different tactic to insist on no debate. Don't debate this or demand better because it helps the Tories.

As the saying goes, Women won't wheest on this. The fight has been brutal and ugly. We have shown that we will keep going until we are heard, understood and attended to.

If Labour said, you have a point, we got this wrong and, in power we will fix, they will feel less heat. However, until women's rights are protected, this is the burden all parties will have to bear.

The right wing press leverage this because they can. Labour need to stop providing fuel for the fire.. The Right will continue to provide heat and oxygen, but Labour are not passive victims here

I am convinced tht the Tories are to blame for the woeful performances of the England RU team and the women's football team not winning the World Cup. In addition they were to blame for our not winning the pub quiz last night and the washing get soaked in a downpour. Sure I can think of lots of other things to blame them for.

Re gender transition, the Guardian says "Dodds said the current process meant that “a panel of anonymous doctors” got to decide something of momentous significance, “based on reams of intrusive medical paperwork and evidence of any surgery”. She added: “This is demeaning for trans people and meaningless in practice. A diagnosis provided by one doctor, with a registrar instead of a panel, should be enough.”

One doctor. No specifics. I guarantee that will.mean any doctor prepared to dish out a diagnosis on demand with no evidence but the requester's say-so. No "reams of intrusive medical paperwork" needed, remember.

@Brainworm, I'm highlighting the ways the government are failing women and children today, while making a mockery of the whole thing by using it as a Culture War.

TooBig

I may be reading your posts incorrectly but I get the sense that you are trying to highlight the Tories contribution to the problem and to lay the blame and focus on them.

However, I think most posters who have grave concerns about women's rights are viewing this as an issue that is bigger than party politics and are failing to find comfort in Labours positioning.

It feels like separate debates are going on

It should be so simple shouldn't it @Dramatico ? Yet this Tory government are failing to implement common sense in our health, social care and education sectors. They're not even issuing guidance. Why is that?

It's not just gender wars is it though? It's 'Stop The Boats' and 'Green Crap' and most recently ULEZ. Anything to divert anger away from their complete failure of Government.

From the Atlantic article:

"Here in Britain, Starmer is betting that most voters will gratefully accept his proposed compromise—one that both assuages their concerns and takes some of the heat out of the debate. Labour has made concessions to trans activists, too, by proposing a system that will allow patients to receive a dysphoria diagnosis from their family doctor, rather than having to apply to an anonymous panel. Starmer has so far declined to apologize on the party’s behalf to feminists who were harassed for views that Labour now officially shares."

He's hoping no one will notice the small print.

Are GP's going to be trained to diagnose gender dysphoria?

How many appointments will be required before a diagnosis can be made?

If a GP can make that diagnosis then does that mean we can dispense with gender clinics?

If the diagnosis element is so straight forward then surely we can just introduce a treatment protocol for hormones and surgery which the GP's can administer.

Will Labour clarify what sex means in the equality act to make it easier for service providers to offer single sex spaces or will they allow a GRC to stand as evidence of "legal sex" for all purposes?

I'll believe the Labour Party is committed to protecting women's rights when they stop refusing membership to Karen Ingala Smith, who compiles the femicide census read out by Jess Phillips on every International Women's Day, when they stop lying about denying Labour Women's Declaration a stand at the party conference and when they condemn party activists for the shameful bullying of Rosie Duffield. Oh and I do want a fucking apology.

They are gaslighting us and Starmer knows it which is why he got Annalise Dodds to issue the new party line on self ID. I don't believe the Labour Party has changed its ideological position I think they just want to pretend they have and will introduce a form of self ID but will attempt to deceive us by calling it something else.

The GRA was a mistake and needs to be repealed. Protection for gender reassignment should remain in the EA 2010 to ensure trans people are protected against discrimination.

Also, there are loads of reasons why women might feel uncomfortable about going for their smear. Sexual assult experiences, difficult childbirth, general feelings of modesty or vulnerability - loads. That is why healthcare professionals do try to make them as quick and easy as possible.

If someone is 'avoiding cervical screening', the onus is on them to take responsibility for their mental and physical health like we all must do in adult life. The onus is not on the rest of society to change everything up to make a certain group of people more comfortable.

The Tory government would not be able to make any headway on this issue if the Labour party provided adequate rebuttals - but they don't.

I feel both sad and uncomfortable by the impact that upholding single sex spaces and provision will have on transwomen who have happily been accessing these spaces no longer being able to (I know that not everyone on this board feels this way). I also feel sad and uncomfortable that in order to protect sex based rights, it needs to be acknowledged that there is a difference between transwomen and women and that this difference is important in a range of contexts. I don't get any pleasure from knowing that in upholding sex based rights, some encounter distress (ranging from self hatred and loathing to narcissistic rage). However, Labour need to be open and honest about this. They need to say that in these instances they are protecting sex based rights and will work hard to mitigate the problems that this causes groups of people for whom this presents difficulties.

There's no pleasing all the people all the time on this.The challenge is that trans advocacy groups are significantly over represented by people with issues relating to narcissism and aren't great at collaborating and joint problem solving.

Exactly. Dense but also politically motivated.

Dodds' statement along with dropping Self ID will be warming the cockles of Labour loving hearts. Starmar is returning their party to them. I hope other parties follow suit.

In the meantime the Tory government continue to make us suffer this so they can use it in their Culture War.

It's not just minimising but also fucking dense. It takes barely any research at all to clock that GC women were on this, sometimes at significant personal expense, long before the mainstream press took an interest.

My recommendation for Labour and Labour supporters who want to win back voters who feel immensely let down by Labour's stance to date........Start by showing you understand why support was lost on this issue, what concerns people still have and build confidence in how things will improve. Don't, or stop, trying to convince us it is a non-issue or that others would make it worse/ no better.

Right now, I don't care on who isn't doing enough, and who caused the problem - I want to see who is going to fix it.

And, as I'm not a straw man, I am also looking at who has the best policies for the environment, the economy and supporting marginalised groups. I can attend to all these things at once!

I can't agree and a after a post suggesting Labour will be OK makes me think of Orwell.

What?

the only reason we all care so much about the gender stuff is the total catastrophizing in the Tory press

This kind of statement is extremely minimising. For women who experience PTSD from male violence, this minimising often echoes the way they were made to feel after the act of violence. Women's pain is minimised and dismissed by the justice system (what was she wearing, she didn't fight back enough), by perpetrators (she wanted it before, she asked for it, she deserved it), friends (but he's a great guy,), the press,, ( devoted family man) etc etc.

These women have already experienced "catastrophe" at the hands of males. They tell you they need single sex provision. You tell them they say that ibecause of the Tory fucking press. Do you have any self awareness?

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/08/uk-trans-rights-labour-party/674944/