...to think teachers DO get paid over the holidays?

It is a bit confusing, and you can see from this thread not even all teachers understand it. When I've been a union rep, I've actually realised not all school leaders understand it, either, and it can become a real source of dispute in schools.

To be honest, I don't think our contracts are that bad, but the issue is that in a lot of schools you have to fight to be treated according to your contract. And in some schools, if there isn't a strong union or people don't understand how it all works, people can end up very exploited and overworked.

It is all quite complicated, and I do wonder if it needs simplifying or certain things need clarifying, or whether it's fit for purpose.

I didn't realise how badly teachers in England got paid 😳

However, if you were fortunate enough that maternity leave ended just before a major holiday, ie the summer, Christmas or Easter holidays, you could go back to work for a day or two, then get paid over the holidays, thus extending it that way... Obviously not everyone can do that... though a good proportion of the teachers I know have been able to

Plus also, if teachers work part-time, they still have 100% of their leave, whereas with any other profession, it's pro-rata...

Swings and roundabouts...

From the STPCD:
... a teacher must work such reasonable additional hours as may be necessary to enable the effective discharge of the teacher’s professional duties, including in particular planning and preparing courses and lessons; and assessing, monitoring, recording and reporting on the learning needs, progress and achievements of assigned pupils.

Teaching and parents' evenings are directed time. Preparing and marking is not.

@mumsneedwine very well said!!

Lots of people work extremely hard, not just teachers. But I don’t know any other profession that is bashed and branded lazy!

People aren’t exactly hammering on the doors wanting to train as teachers, hence why there is a staffing crisis!!

I work in the public sector and have to work way more than my hours and never get overtime or time off on lieu.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl that makes sense and I would definitely support an increase in pay if they wanted to increase the directed hours

Awh this is such bs. As a senior civil engineer my friend makes 42 k. Work wise he never takes a break for longer than a day, so if he took of Sunday he'll work the whole of Saturday.
Civil engineers design roads and bridges and buildings. If that thing falls thousands of lives could be lost. Not to start on the lawsuits and money if they don't deliver on time. (from the contractors side) I'd say that's immense responsibility.
My mother is a teacher. Sorry, it is not even comparable.

And I'm assuming civil engineering is just one of the few jobs where long hours and low pay is the norm.
It frankly grates me when teachers feel like they're the only people getting hard done by.
I wouldn't put them first on the list.

Also as a genuine question, what are you marking over the summer hols? Marks should be in, children should now whether they pass or not by now?
You dont mark jack over the summer hols?

@letstrythatagain

Honestly many many professions are like this. It's the world of work these day. Not right at all but I know of nobody who only works their contracted hours.

In the private sector, sure but not public sector. In every other job, people would get time off in lieu. Not teachers.

And they aren't typically still earning £40k with 15+ years of experience under their belts either.

This isn't correct. The 1265 hours is not intended to include all your preparing and marking.

Anything you can do from home at a time of your own choosing isn't part of directed time. Our contracts do specify additional work as necessary as well.

If in school events/meetings/training etc take you over your directed time, then you should raise this with your union rep.

And if anyone would like the cushy hours and holidays please get training. I don't know one school near me that's fully staffed next week. It's going to be an interesting year.

My HT was furious with me when I pointed this out to two pregnant colleagues and told them to make sure they started their maternity leave in September, even if it meant they were only back in school for a couple of days!

What people forget is that school holidays and dates aren’t arranged for teachers convenience, they are arranged to accommodate other criteria, like Christmas, Easter and public Examination timetables, school holidays have always mirrored the holidays established by other educational bodies like Universities. It is a bit of a myth that they were designed so that children could help with harvest times, since education for the working population only really fit going in the middle of the 19th century when urban industrialisation was already taking over from agricultural employment.

If schools were open with longer term times and shorter holidays then the teaching salary bills would rise accordingly, as would salaries for TAs, school support staff, admin staff, caretaking and cleaning staff, midday and catering staff, as well as increased spending on consumables, utility bills etc.

Assuming it’s the same as England, they will get 31k divided by 12, the same as you do.

This isn't about who works the hardest, but I would say that my contract as a teacher is a bit different to any contract I've had in industry.

Basically, our contracts specify "directed time" of 1265 hours over the course of the year. This is time where our school can tell us (essentially) where we should be and what we should be doing. This is supposed to cover all meetings, evening events etc as well as (obviously) our teaching hours.

Then, on top of this, there's an expectation of working additional hours to plan/mark etc- but the idea is you can do that at home, and whenever you like, so e.g. I can come home, cook dinner and then mark from 7-9pm or whatever, or I could save up the work and do it on Sunday if I prefer that. I agree that this is, in many ways, similar to a lot of professional jobs.

The directed time, which is when the school can tell us to e.g. be at a parent evening or open event- i.e. you must be in school until 8pm this Friday- can become a source of dispute because some schools like to have lots of meetings and events and this can push people over. You might argue it's a non issue, but our pay is specifically calculated around the 1265 hours. If a lot of schools think it's not enough, then I think they should change our contracts to increase these hours, and then also increase our pay accordingly.

As a separate point, some teachers do get confused by this and think they should be able to get everything done in the 1265 hours, which was never the intention.

Not all work is directed time. Duties certainly are, and should come under the 1265. There should be a directed time budget produced every year. If you are being directed above the 1265, then contact your union, but be clear about directed and nondirected time first.

@Countdown2023 oooh yes please. I could retire to Tahiti with the extra hours we have to put in.

We are contracted and paid for 1,265 directed hours per year. This should include teaching, preparing, marking, parents evenings etc. Which is obviously a joke as last year I worked well over 2,200 hours. So the odd 1,000 are unpaid.

we need a campaign that once we have done 1265 directed hours we get overtime! Or TOIL

Teachers should record hours on time sheet system including clubs and duties.

They get an annual salary paid in 12 installments. The rest is apointless argument which does nothing for their case.
My DS is a teacher. He has had two weeks holiday this summer and worked for the remaining four weeks. He would not say he wasn't paid for holidays.

Question is OP would you work 12 days unpaid? That’s not including additional work I do in the evenings, parents evenings, performance, residential trips, other half term break tasks. Remember I am getting paid 39 weeks to work and 5.6 weeks as holiday - like you I should not be required to work during this holiday

I'm sure there are many jobs where you'd be contracted 9-5 but work late most evenings and work at weekend at least 12 times a year. Not saying teachers shouldn't be paid more, and I do support the strikes, but doing more hours than you're contracted for is not unusual at all.

47 weeks excludes my annual leave BTW, I work full time

Can I ask, so if a teacher is paid £31k for example, that's their yearly salary, is it pro rata then, just for the weeks they work?
So my salary is 31k (not a teacher) and I work 47 weeks of the year, so I get £660 a week.
Teachers here (in northern Ireland) get approx 14 weeks a year off, does that mean if they earned the same salary as me (31k) is that spread over 52 weeks meaning their holidays are discounted and they earn £596 a week? Or do they get paid for 38 weeks at £816 a week, which technically still adds up to the same salary?
Sorry I'm just a bit confused about it all.

I don't think this is the case. The STPCD only quantifies directed time (1265 hours over 195 days). It explicitly states that teachers are expected to work additional hours in order to fulfill their professional responsibilities. It doesn't quantify these. If we are deducted pay (unpaid leave, strike), it is at a rate of 1/365 salary per day. We don't accrue leave in the way other jobs do. I started work in one school at the beginning of July. I will be paid over the summer, and if I leave at Christmas, I will not need to pay anything back, even though I will not have worked half of the 195 days.

We are paid an annual salary. We have the full legal leave entitlement included in the school holidays. Directed time is not the same as contracted hours.

Basically they have an annualised salary

They work 40 weeks and receive their wages in 12 monthly instalments.

They could get other jobs during the 12 weeks they don't work. Many do and for example take on extra work like exam marking or tutoring.

Or they can enjoy their very long holidays.

These are well known choices that they take when choosing this career.

I guess a teachers salary takes into account fact that we mostly are only contracted to work 40 weeks of the year, if teachers worked the same amount of hours as other public sector roles presumably overall salaries would be higher.